[Bart Bradley]

Matt:

Care to explain why, every time this thread falls off the first page, you bump it back to the top?

This is starting to seem eerily similar to your thread touting Wine Valley where you bumped the thread to the top for a month...often (just as in this last post) where noone comments between your posts?

Do you have or perceive an obligation to promote Barton Creek?

Bart

[Lou_Duran]

Come on Bart.  Let's be nice.  Matt likes BC and I've been sick for three days, so posting on this blasted site is a good distraction.

Matt,

I think that The Dallas Morning News might have the public rankings out this weekend.  The three BC courses excluding The Cliffs are in the overall top 100, so they should fare very well.  A third list will be published at some later time that further segregates the courses by three or four green fee levels.

I'd have to look at my spreadsheet to answer your question, and perhaps I should wait until the official list is out.  Suffice it to say that my estimation of the BC courses is probably not as high as that of the composite rankings.

I also don't look at BC as being "open" to the public, though, in the sense that Pebble Beach is, I suppose so is BC.  At least in the past, one either had to be a guest of a member or a guest of the resort to play.  The green fee is a multiple of what is typically charged at most Texas public courses and perhaps so too should be the expectations.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt you said it best with your feelings about the general feeling that Austin is a great place to visit and live and BC is good solid golf resort. That is as good as it get as compared to other resorts. Austin is top tier to visit and BC is average to good for golf among the better places to visit. I have noticed the bumping up as well. I do look forward to playing over there soon for it is a wonderful area to visit.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

Yes, indeed visit Austin when time allows.

I chuckle when people say I bump things up -- do those same folks say the same things to others or is such actions simply targeted at certain people?

I simply liked what Barton Creek provided -- I also visited Hyatt at Lost Pines and played Wolfdancer there. I liked the first 12 holes as they contained the far better terrain -- the final six along the Colorado River area were quite similar and failed to add much, if anything, to the time there. Too bad the final six holes were not on the same type of property as the first dozen.

I'd be curious to your comments when going to Barton Creek. I'm not suggesting that any of the courses there would make a top 100 listing but they aren't (minus the AP layout) mediocre or inferior quality courses.

Lou:

Interesting response -- then why not pair like-minded TX courses against one another. For example, bonafide public courses would not include the likes of a Barton Creek or Horseshoe Bay. They would be listed on the resort side since people wishing to stay there are the ones able to play there.

Bart:

With all due respect ...

I have no obligation to promote Barton Creek or any other course. Frankly, I find your tone and insinuation as condescending. So be it -- if that's your take fair enough. I see your stance as wrong.

Barton Creek gets little attention -- do you say the same things when people raise the same tired banter about NGLA or Seminole or Garden City, etc, etc, etc. If people wish to speak about certain courses I say that's fine -- if people see things differently then simply present a valid counterpoint rather than the low level personal sniping.

Let me point out that my love for Wine Valley is true and because I liked it very much wanted to see what others had to say. Have you played either Barton Creek or Wine Valley ? If so -- please share your thoughts and point out what I have either overstated or failed to point out. 



I respect what Lou D has to say -- he understands Texas and

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, some bump better than others. lol I have been there numerous times. I do like it and agree none of the courses are top 100. But as I said in the first post. None of the courses are in their respective architects top 10 either. That is telling given how many Fazios, Palmers etc are tied to or near resorts.I am just due another trip over there. I used to stay there exclusively when in Austin notwithstanding the drive in to town.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

I have played a good share of TF courses (75+) and the Canyons at Barton Creek could possibly sniff a higher position -- top ten doubtful but a top 15 position is possible. It just seems that much of TX golf is viewed by many as being low level stuff and frankly it's better than many might imagine in the last 10 or more years.

Stereotypes die hard.

[David Camponi]

Bump

Matt Ward has played 75+ Fazio's....Just thought that everyone should know.

Not having been on this board that long I know that Ward has played 75+ Fazio courses; it is kind of his thing.

I want my thing to be that I have played 7+ Rick Smith courses; I am the worlds foremost expert on Rick Smith golf courses; please remember that.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou:

Interesting response -- then why not pair like-minded TX courses against one another. For example, bonafide public courses would not include the likes of a Barton Creek or Horseshoe Bay. They would be listed on the resort side since people wishing to stay there are the ones able to play there.

I respect what Lou D has to say -- he understands Texas and

Thanks, Matt, about the respect.  I prefer when people agree with me, but never expect it.  I do hope that I've earned the respect, but don't require that either.  Like you, I believe that playing broadly is important, and I try to play all the courses of note in this large state.  With the drought in new construction, it is becoming easier to keep up, and this year I'm concentrating on courses which have been renovated since my last visit, plus a few new additions to the top 100 in out-of-the-way places.

The DMNs does precisely that- peer comparisons- in its annual rankings.  In a departure from the past, it has chosen to break out the rankings in three separate editions published over a two-month period (I think).

In regards to BC vs. HSB, I've played the latter's three courses numerous times. HSB's newest two courses, Ram Rock and Applerock, were built on difficult terrain and both are very hard, though not extraordinarily long.  Ram Rock, from the back tees with some wind, I hazard to guess what would make the cut in a PGA Tour event- 5-8+?  It had the reputation for a long time of being among the most difficult courses in the state.  Applerock is not much easier.  I like both BC-Fazio courses better than these two, and give the Palmer course the nod over HSB's member-friendly course, Slick Rock.

Right next door to HSB is Fazio's Escondido.  It is one of my favorite courses in Texas.  Close by on the other side of the street is the yet-to-be-opened HSB- Nicklaus course, a private club like Escondido, which I hear good things about.

Regarding Wolfdancer, I was blown away by the start, then let down considerably at the end after the cute drop-down short par 3 (12?).  I asked politely if they considered swapping the nines, but didn't get a response.  Using river bottom land is common in Texas, but I don't understand why they did it there or how they came to that routing.  A nice golf course nonetheless.

[erichunter]

Lou,

Maybe I missed something but I wasn't quite blown away by the start and not as let down as you by the finish at Wolfdancer.  I'm not sure why they didn't open the views to the Colorado River on the closing stretch.   Permitting in central Texas is not an easy thing and may have played a role.  A good addition to the local scene and an improvement over Colovista (NLE) in Bastrop IMO.

As for BC, I think it is rated approximately where it deserves on a GCA basis.  It is an intriguing option to join as a member due to the quantity for the same ballpark initiation in years past as ACC, AGC, Spanish Oaks.  The omnipresent housing has a negative effect on the 3 BC courses near the hotel but the Faz courses are nice to play.  I do like the Palmer course more than others have stated on here. 

[Eric Smith]

Still under appreciated (at least the Canyons course is) as it is getting stomped in early voting by Digest fans.

[Bill_McBride]

Still under appreciated (at least the Canyons course is) as it is getting stomped in early voting by Digest fans.

I've played them both, and would play Forest Dunes about 8-2, so that 25-2 isn't far off.

[Sean_A]

Bump

Matt Ward has played 75+ Fazio's....Just thought that everyone should know.

Not having been on this board that long I know that Ward has played 75+ Fazio courses; it is kind of his thing.

I want my thing to be that I have played 7+ Rick Smith courses; I am the worlds foremost expert on Rick Smith golf courses; please remember that.

David

This post had me wide mouthed as a bass.  You should be a writer for the guy who does these animations - its a perefect fit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfxQejugN2w&feature=youtu.be

Ciao

[Jud_T]

I've always wondered why the C&C course there never got talked about much.  Is it on a funky piece of property?

[Casey Wade]

I don't understand the love of BC Canyons.  I do think there are good holes like holes 2-4 but I don't care for any par 5 where you have to lay up off the tee (number 7) Then you have holes like 15 where you have to drive it in the trees to keep it in the fairway.  I played in an STPGA event there last year and my first drive went in the left side at the edge of the trees and I played a provisional for a lost ball, hit that one dead center of the fairway.  Found my first in the middle of the fairway and never found my second ball.

I found BC Foothills to be difficult but more enjoyable and CC Cliffside fun.

[Bill_McBride]

I've always wondered why the C&C course there never got talked about much.  Is it on a funky piece of property?

I have frequently posted how much I love that course.  The property isn't funky but is fairly hilly as it's right on the edge of the Hill Country.  What I love is how little shaping C&C did, especially by contrast with the two Fazio courses which I find to be overcooked and not as much fun.  At least half the greens at Cliffside are sloped front to back with no artificial building up in the back in most cases. The greens are very naturally draped over the terrain.

All the love goes to the Fazio courses. It's almost always easier to get on Cliffside.

[Matt_Ward]

David C:

So noted on Rick Smith courses -- feel free to pass along your thoughts on his design efforts when such a thread on that topic starts. I'd like to get your comments.

Just an FYI -- it's not "just my thing" but too many people on this board, if you don't know it already, seem to believe that anything associated with TF is akin to the anti-Christ. That's not the case and often times people lob opinions from the seat of their pants and with hardly any serious portfolio to draw generalized conclusions. Hope that info helps your understanding.

Lou:

Thanks for the detailed update on the courses you mentioned. I really like Horseshoe Bay -- if Ram Rock were alone by itself then the overall demands would be a bit much -- I saw some of the scores at the recently played Division III championships there. With the other courses -- I see Horsheshoe Bay akin to the course offerings one gets at Bethpage. No doubt the terrain is tough and when the wind begins to HOWL it can be something to handle.

I also see Wolfdancer in the same way -- the best part of the course is its isolation with the first 12 holes -- the final six holes don't add anything to the ones that comebefore it. The archtecture is also somewhat redundant wioth the dog-leg right long par-4 holes at #13 and #16 -- you have a pedestrain sdhort par-4 145th and the only two saving graces comes with the par-3 17th -- good green set-up with bunkering pinching inf rom the right and the fine green at the closing hole. Could have been a good bit better.

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

The first eight holes of Cliffs are not that interesting -- things do change with the uphill dog-leg par-4 9th and continue that way till the ending.

To their credit -- run-up approaches can be made and with the nature of TX wind that works out quite well.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

Where would you rank it in your C&C portfolio?  Towards the bottom?

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

I like Cliffs but when you hold it against the likes of a Sand Hills, Clear Creek, et al -- it becomes a bit much.

The Cliffs is better than a few of the more recent ones -- frankyl, I don't see all the greatness in a Hidden Creek and I think the land on which The Cliffs is situated does help things when playing there.

Short answer -- probably in the latter half of all C&C courses I have played but not in the bottom 25%.

[Lou_Duran]

I don't understand the love of BC Canyons.  I do think there are good holes like holes 2-4 but I don't care for any par 5 where you have to lay up off the tee (number 7) Then you have holes like 15 where you have to drive it in the trees to keep it in the fairway.  I played in an STPGA event there last year and my first drive went in the left side at the edge of the trees and I played a provisional for a lost ball, hit that one dead center of the fairway.  Found my first in the middle of the fairway and never found my second ball.

I found BC Foothills to be difficult but more enjoyable and CC Cliffside fun.

Casey,

You must be one of those long hitters.  With my pea shooter that rarely gets the ball out more than 250, I had no trouble keeping the ball on the golf course.  Based on your description of #15, if the golf course was from the classical period, it would be considered quirky, but charming design from an architect who didn't feel the need to blow up the land to force his vision of fairness at the expense of interest.  I can think of a number of courses with severe cants which force playing the boundary of the corridor to find the short grass (Olympic- Lake's #17 comes readily to mind).

I plan to play the BC courses this year to refresh myself.  Who knows?  You may be right.  I did like your course very much.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

Given your comments on Ram Rock at Horseshoe Bay -- where would you personally place it among the state's top public courses.

Are any of the courses from Barton Creek among your personal top ten too ?

thanks,

[Lou_Duran]

Lou:

Given your comments on Ram Rock at Horseshoe Bay -- where would you personally place it among the state's top public courses.

Are any of the courses from Barton Creek among your personal top ten too ?

thanks,

I don't have the courses broken down by type, but I have the two BC Fazio's in my top 50 (neither in the top 10), and the two newest HSB courses in my second 50.  I don't want to go into greater detail now, but none of the four, in my opinion, represent the top results of their respective architects.

[Jeff Zeagler]

I'm in agreement that the resort is really nice but the courses weren't that impressive to me.  In the recent Dallas Morning News rankings, BC Foothills was ranked ahead of Pine Dunes in Frankston, TX.  Obviously, the ammenities are on totally different levels but in terms of the golf; I would take Pine Dunes over the BC courses every day of the week.  Much more interesting holes with multiple strategy options for most. 

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

The issue should not be are the courses in question the best of those respective architects but how those specific courses stack up against what is there in Texas now.

Jeff:

If you are up for it -- your personal top ten public in The Lone Star State ?

[Jeff Zeagler]

Matt -

I'm from Louisiana so I haven't played a ton of golf in Texas.  Of the public facilities I have played (Barton Creek courses, Cowboys, The Tribute, Pine Dunes, Buffalo Creek and Crown Colony), I would rank Pine Dunes my favorite. 

Every year a group of 20 Shreveport/Bossier guys travele to Pine Dunes to play Ryder Cup style matches called the Chopper Cup (named after a pal whose nickname is "Chopper").  The matches pit the Silver Spoons ("Spoons") versus the Municipals ("Munis") with each team being comprised of pretty decent golfers (+2 hcp - 8 hcp) with a 4 hcp being "average".  Many of us have traveled pretty extensively, including a former NFL quarterback who has practically played every great course in the US, and to a man we've all fallen in love with Pine Dunes.  In fact, the qb's comment to me this year was that he could play the course everyday and never get tired of it.  The only thing I would change at Pine Dunes would be to move the 18th tee box back and left 30 - 50 yards to make the hole a little more challenging.

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