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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2011, 12:54:39 PM »
Lou, perhaps you are infallible on uncorruptable. I freely admit that I am all too easily fallible and corruptable. But at least I know my shortcomings and I can work against my nature whenever I can.

What can I say, Richard, I am just a 59 year-old trained in psychology and business who is just too dull to see myself for what I am.  Please allow me to suggest to you that just about all of us are "corruptable", but that perhaps the threshold of crossing the line is a bit higher than a green fee at a top 100 course.  Believe it or not, in the early 1980s I could have played Augusta National by simply tossing some business to an Atlanta bank.  Eventhough it was relatively little money to my employer (but an opportunity for the bank to establish an important corporate relationship) and I could have pushed the decision that way, it did not make business sense and I never gave it a second thought.  I may never play ANGC, but don't regret my decision- it makes sleeping at night even with an enlarged prostrate a bit easier.

BTW, I heard that you are now a rater.  Given your admitedly high susceptibility to even the most minor of inducements, what firewalls are you erecting to ensure that the faith and confidence bestowed upon you by the magazine were well-placed?  Are you insisting on paying the rack rate expected of a non-rater stepping up to the counter?

BTW2, I don't consider myself to be a role model for anything or, for that matter, a particularly virtuous person.  However, I routinely do stuff for other people with no expectation of receiving anything in return.  Maybe it is a cultural thing, but I don't consider doing "favors".  I don't keep a "book" of debits and credits, but if I can reasonably help someone, why not?  Perhaps the quid pro quo is the satisfaction for just doing the good deed (one of my biggest regrets in life is not earning my Eagle Scout badge before my Boy Scouts troop folded- lacking one requirement for my Cooking merit badge as three times my homemade reflector oven failed in my attempt to bake bread over an open fire, but I digress).  

Sean,

Your pursuit of "getting it right" is laudable.  But, I suspect, gaining your endorsement is nearly impossible.  I am sure all the list administrators do everything possible in their judgement to "getting it right".  As the well-known book suggests, it is not a "game of perfect".  Sometimes satisficing is the best reasonable expectation and guide to driving improvement.  I think that most raters would take umbrage with your characterization that their work and process constitutes "doing a sloppy job".
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 12:57:11 PM by Lou_Duran »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2011, 01:00:35 PM »
Lou

Once again, its not the raters or the courses wbich are the issue so far as I am concerned.  Its the faulty system which needs attention.  Once a proper system is employed, then one can take a look at the raters.  Otherwise you are putting the cart ahead of the horse, but then it seemed to work for the Monty Python crew!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2011, 01:19:53 PM »
Lou

Its the faulty system which needs attention.  Once a proper system is employed, then one can take a look at the raters.  Otherwise you are putting the cart ahead of the horse, but then it seemed to work for the Monty Python crew!

Ciao

I guess I misunderstood your earlier posts.  I was under the impression that free golf and other dark inducements as explained by a lot of pop psychology were at the root of the problem.  For my edification, can you detail the faults in the system?  And I do like Python, in moderate doses.  

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2011, 01:25:31 PM »
I am only weeks into this rater thing, so I am still pretty much a virgin. I was hoping to stay incognito, thanks Lou! :)

I am currently correlating the ratings of all of the courses that I have played previously, so those courses could save their money on comping me. :)

Here is what I am planning to do to fight my own fallible nature.

I am not going to announce that I am a rater on any public course. I don't want a discount or a comp to influence me. I can't do much about raters' retreats, since I do want to attend them to get myself oriented properly.

With private courses, if I can get access without having to announce that I am rater, I will do so. For others, I will just have to make sure that I justify the ratings to myself to make sure that I am not rating something higher than it should because of the access given.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 01:27:27 PM by Richard Choi »

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2011, 01:36:13 PM »

Terry, How big could your anecdotal sample size be?

Small enough that it would be easy for an established rater to dismiss out of hand but big enough for me to defend my personal view.  If you don't think that most raters don't know what they're talking about, then you're not reading the substance, or lack thereof, of a fair amount of commentary hereabouts.  I'm not outing anybody, but we have numerous examples of raters on this site that haven't been able to muster a cogent argument about a single golf hole, much less a golf course, or the work of a given architect.  They're in it for access and the publications need numbers so they need bodies.  The heads don't seem to matter so much.  I think the ratings are fun.  They generate interest in the game and interest in traveling to play other courses, but I can't say I've been impressed by the judgment, talent and gravitas of that many raters I've gotten to know.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2011, 01:41:30 PM »
Could the issue be solved by having raters pay unaccompanied guest rates to private clubs?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2011, 02:36:44 PM »
I am only weeks into this rater thing, so I am still pretty much a virgin. I was hoping to stay incognito, thanks Lou! :)

I am currently correlating the ratings of all of the courses that I have played previously, so those courses could save their money on comping me. :)

Here is what I am planning to do to fight my own fallible nature.

I am not going to announce that I am a rater on any public course. I don't want a discount or a comp to influence me. I can't do much about raters' retreats, since I do want to attend them to get myself oriented properly.

With private courses, if I can get access without having to announce that I am rater, I will do so. For others, I will just have to make sure that I justify the ratings to myself to make sure that I am not rating something higher than it should because of the access given.

I am sorry Richard.  I didn't mean to out you.  I don't remember how I learned about your new gig, but it was not information I solicited.  You are to be commended for your efforts to minimize undue influences.

You may wish to give some consideration to your view that "courses could save their money on comping me".  At the risk of seeming like I am trying to instruct, it might be pointed out that unless a course is full and by comping you they would be foregoing a green fee, they are not saving money (I am assuming that your'e hoofing it, but the marginal costs of the cart fleet are minimal even if you ride).  Of course, if you are willing to pay the green fee anyways, nothing should stop you, particularly if you believe that by forking over your credit card it enables you to be a better rater.

Putting aside personal frailties, I would argue that the opposite might be the case, i.e. if your golfing funds are limited, the cost of travel and green fees might put a strain on the number of courses you see.  I think you might agree that (ceteris paribus) the more you do something, the better you become at doint it.  I am a Wardian regarding depth and breadth, carrying the water, going to the far reaches, etc.   Ok, Pardner! ;) 

 

 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2011, 02:44:19 PM »
I am only weeks into this rater thing, so I am still pretty much a virgin. I was hoping to stay incognito, thanks Lou! :)

I am currently correlating the ratings of all of the courses that I have played previously, so those courses could save their money on comping me. :)

Here is what I am planning to do to fight my own fallible nature.

I am not going to announce that I am a rater on any public course. I don't want a discount or a comp to influence me. I can't do much about raters' retreats, since I do want to attend them to get myself oriented properly.

With private courses, if I can get access without having to announce that I am rater, I will do so. For others, I will just have to make sure that I justify the ratings to myself to make sure that I am not rating something higher than it should because of the access given.

I asked you if you were a rater when you were out of line with your accusations against Jim Franklin.  I'm glad Lou outed you.  Are you proud of yourself?  Funny how soon into your career you practice such blatant reverse bias.  The Alotian could care less that you rate for Golfweek and it got your panties in such a bunch that you insulted one of the finest raters practicing the art today.  To come out against a course that will not let you play is worse than pumping one up that does.  Congrats.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2011, 03:40:15 PM »
Lou

Its the faulty system which needs attention.  Once a proper system is employed, then one can take a look at the raters.  Otherwise you are putting the cart ahead of the horse, but then it seemed to work for the Monty Python crew!

Ciao

I guess I misunderstood your earlier posts.  I was under the impression that free golf and other dark inducements as explained by a lot of pop psychology were at the root of the problem.  For my edification, can you detail the faults in the system?  And I do like Python, in moderate doses.  

Sweet Lou

1. Ananimity during process, very low key before and after process (certainly no discussion board conversations about rating)
2. No comps of any sort
3. Mags pay the raters instead of clubs providing the incentive
4. No access due to being a rater
5. A star and recommendation system rather than 1 to 100.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2011, 04:32:27 PM »
I didn't realise that the rating game was such a big thing. It is a surprise to me that each publication has a network of raters nationwide, and that rater retreats are organised. This thread has been a real eye opener.

I have a very simple question that hopefully one of you raters will answer.

Why do you rate courses?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2011, 04:42:08 PM »
I

Why do you rate courses?


I rate courses because golf and the people who provide our playing fields have been very good to me throughout my life.  I feel that it is the least I can do to give back to this game that I love.  If even one person can find a new course that shines a light into what may have been a less fulfilling day It makes me realize my sacrifices have not been in vain.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2011, 04:52:27 PM »
I

Why do you rate courses?


I rate courses because golf and the people who provide our playing fields have been very good to me throughout my life.  I feel that it is the least I can do to give back to this game that I love.  If even one person can find a new course that shines a light into what may have been a less fulfilling day It makes me realize my sacrifices have not been in vain.

John,

I can be a bit slow mentally speaking, so forgive me if your response confuses me. Having read some of you previous posts, I am having great difficulty in interpreting you response as anything other than sarcasm. Aren't you in the anti-Rating Camp?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #87 on: April 06, 2011, 05:06:50 PM »
I

Why do you rate courses?


I rate courses because golf and the people who provide our playing fields have been very good to me throughout my life.  I feel that it is the least I can do to give back to this game that I love.  If even one person can find a new course that shines a light into what may have been a less fulfilling day It makes me realize my sacrifices have not been in vain.

John,

I can be a bit slow mentally speaking, so forgive me if your response confuses me. Having read some of you previous posts, I am having great difficulty in interpreting you response as anything other than sarcasm. Aren't you in the anti-Rating Camp?

Many of my best friends in the golfing world are raters.  Because I have such high respect for these people and understand the sacrifices they go through to inform and entertain I sometimes get a bit disquieted with those who are in it for the wrong reasons.  I would hope you would think more of me than to consider me some sad sack Don Quixote type.  My God man, if I didn't love rating courses, where would I find the passion I have for the subject.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2011, 08:18:07 PM »
Jaka - love that last sentence!

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #89 on: April 06, 2011, 10:39:33 PM »
Could the issue be solved by having raters pay unaccompanied guest rates to private clubs?
What issue?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

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