[Richard Choi]

The thread about Bay Hill and my recent experience at Pacific Dunes leads me to this question.

Is there a more penal par 3 than the 14th at Pacific Dune?



It is certainly a gorgeous hole, but it is a card-wrecker ready to pounce on any unsuspecting golfers. During King's Putter, there were many X's. On the Friday morning round, with the head wind, I hit two draws that became hooks right into the gorse. And on Sunday's round, with a tail wind, I hit a nice wedge to the front green which just kept rolling right into the nastiest bunker you will ever find.

The hole is so exposed to wind and it is so raised up, it is just a beast of a hole now. I think this is the hole that I fear the most at Bandon Resort and perhaps that hole that I fear the most anywhere.

At least if I hit it into the drink at 17th at Sawgrass, I get to drop about 80 yards away to try again.

What is the most penal par 3 you know? Do you think it is more penal than the 14th at Pac?

[Bill_McBride]

Oh I don't know, 16th at Cypress Point?

[Carl Johnson]

I've never played at Bandon Resort, but have you ever played the Postage Stamp at Royal Troon (where I died in the coffin)?  If so, how would you comapre that hole with your 14th at Pac Dunes?  The look is similar, though right and left are reversed.  From your photo I'd say the Pac Dunes green is larger and the bunkers less penal, but then that's just from the photo you've put up.  What do others who've played both have to say?

[Mark Saltzman]

Richard,

I don't know if it is more penal than PD 14, but one of the hardest par 3s I have ever played is 13 at Wolf Run in Indiana.  The hole plays 255 yards(ish) from the tips and 225 from the member tees.  I can assure this hole has seen its fair share of X's. Any shot short and left finds the minefield of bunkers and any of the very short bunkers leave an all but impossible uphill recovery over more bunkers to a green that has a severe run-off over the back for the player that catches it just a bit thin.  Any shot short and right caroms down the hill and is likely to be blocked out by trees (and even if not it is still a heck of a difficult recovery). 

While there is less of a chance of a lost ball than at PD, there is a great Ping Pong possibility.  Maybe there are not as many X's as at PD, but I'll bet there are less pars too! 

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

Not even close -- the 8th at Wolf Creek (Mesquite, NV) -- makes the 14th at Pac Dunes look so e-z.

I'd place the 8th there against any par-3 hole in that specific category.

And, it can be quite fair when you play the correct tee.

[Carl Rogers]

In February, on my last day at Bandon, I birdied the 14th at PD.

Perhaps more memorable and special than I realized at the time.

[Mark Saltzman]

Richard:

Not even close -- the 8th at Wolf Creek (Mesquite, NV) -- makes the 14th at Pac Dunes look so e-z.

I'd place the 8th there against any par-3 hole in that specific category.

And, it can be quite fair when you play the correct tee.

Matt,

I think you're probably right, 8 at WC is harder than either of the holes listed thus far, but only from the championship tee.  But, there is a five yard bailout area to the right of the green. That's all you need from 250 yards, right?

[Tim Martin]

Richard,

I don't know if it is more penal than PD 14, but one of the hardest par 3s I have ever played is 13 at Wolf Run in Indiana.  The hole plays 255 yards(ish) from the tips and 225 from the member tees.  I can assure this hole has seen its fair share of X's. Any shot short and left finds the minefield of bunkers and any of the very short bunkers leave an all but impossible uphill recovery over more bunkers to a green that has a severe run-off over the back for the player that catches it just a bit thin.  Any shot short and right caroms down the hill and is likely to be blocked out by trees (and even if not it is still a heck of a difficult recovery). 

While there is less of a chance of a lost ball than at PD, there is a great Ping Pong possibility.  Maybe there are not as many X's as at PD, but I'll bet there are less pars too! 

Mark-That looks like golf`s version of the electric chair. Thank god for equitable stroke control.

[Pete_Pittock]

Two or Twenty, the old 14th at Engineers

[Kalen Braley]

Richard,

I'm also 1 for 1 in my one playing of Pac Dunes.  I birdied it, but had to land my wedge short of the green to allow for the proper roll to 5 feet!

Another penal hole!! 

[Donnie Beck]

#11 at Shinnecock. The shortest par 5 in America..

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

If someone can hit the 5-yard area to the right of the green at Wolf Creek's 8th -- then hiting the green is a piece of cake.

From 245 yards and with ANY wind blowing -- from any direction -- the hole is just tough as nails. Yields nothing without flawless execution.

[Bob_Huntley]

I would hazard a guess that Gene Littler would opt for the 5th at Pine Valley.

Bob

[Melvyn Morrow]

Designs like this shown in the picture below make me want to deploy good old Victorian diplomacy by sending in the Gun Boat to resolve the problem once and for all.

One good shot could see that island split in two prior to each sinking below the ripples of the pond.

Melvyn

Richard,

I'm also 1 for 1 in my one playing of Pac Dunes.  I birdied it, but had to land my wedge short of the green to allow for the proper roll to 5 feet!

Another penal hole!! 

[Matt_Ward]

Bob H:

The 5th at PV is a junior varsity toughness -- compared to the 8th at Wolf Creek when played from tip tee distance.

Played both several times to make that comment.

[Andy Stamm]

The 17th at University of Wisconsin Golf Course (University Ridge) is brutal. It's 250 (from the tips) to a small green with water short and left and a bunker right. There's not really any bail out right or long. I guess there is a little one right, but it's not much shorter and tiny.

I thought the hole was just terrible, honestly. I hit a peach of a driver to 15 feet or so (fortunately the pin was up front as it was into the wind). I just don't understand a hole like that, at that length, with nowhere to go.

I've not played 14th at Pacific Dunes, but if it's harder than this one, I hope it at least has more options.

I'd love to hear other's opinions who have played it.

Mark,

I've played that one at Wolf Run a few times, and it's brutal. I don't understand why the keep it so long, especially with the back and right sloping green that you mentioned. Into the wind, you can't get home and down wind you can't stop it. At least you can find it though!

[Phil McDade]

Andy:

I'd agree about the 17th at URidge -- if playing from the tips at the newly lengthened back tee. It not only lengthens the hole with water fronting the green, it creates an even tougher angle for the tee shot. You can see some pics of the 17th at URidge in this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38431.0.html

I don't think the 17th is a killer from the up tees -- still hard from the blues at 192 yds, I think it's around 170 from the whites, and downhill, and the green is actually much deeper than what it appears on the tee. My approach has always been to whack at it with something I know will carry the pond, and worry about the up-and-down afterwards.

[Mark Saltzman]

Here's a picture of 8 at Wolf Creek.  Not much bailout.



Here's a couple more that I have played, that I found particularly difficult.  The one that can really lead to a huge number is 16 at Victoria National.  What an amazing hole, but what a nightmare, especially if it's windy.

Victoria National 16



Purgatory 17



Doonbeg 14



Crooked Stick 6 (though notice my ball close to the pin )

[jeffwarne]

7 at Palmetto

[David_Madison]

Kiawah Ocean Course #17

[Andy Stamm]

Mark,

I agree about the up tees, but a 170 (from the whites) carry for the other guys I was with, who weren't great players, was certainly no picnic. The picture in the thread you linked was just how I remember it. The green is so narrow on that angle and far away with water everywhere short. I just didn't think that hole provided any options, especially with any wind.

[Shane Wright]

Richard,

I've played 14 at PD only four times split up across two days and the wind was mild but I can't see how 14 is even in the top 5 hardest par threes I've played.

Double bogey can be taken out of play pretty easily if needed.  

Three par threes that come to mind that are tougher in my opinion (sorry no pictures, I'm on my Nook):

1. Calamity at Royal Portrush.
2.  #3 @ Willingers in Northfield, Mn
3.  #13 or #14 at Waterlefe in Bradenton, Fl.  This is probably the only par three I hae played (played it probably 20 times) where I considered hittng it long into the water on purpose to get a drop near the green.

If I can find pictures I will post them.

[Jim Nugent]

Oh I don't know, 16th at Cypress Point?

Bill, I wouldn't put 16th at CPC on the list because it gives you a bailout.  You can play a short(ish) iron, and then a wedge, take X out of the picture, and have a chance at par. 

[Jay Flemma]

In every pic save one, at least there are some places where you can find and play your ball...the exception?  Sawgrass 17.  You can't recover from water. 

Dont forget 12 at The Pit and the other tribute version/pastiches of the 17th at sawgrass like at renditions and world tour.

[Matt_Ward]

The tough past about the 8th at Wolf Creek is the feeling of blindness when you launch your approach into space. The green sits well below the tees but you need a good sight line and plenty of confidence to fire away. From 245 yards I can't see much tougher any other hole can be.

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