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Niall C

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Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« on: March 24, 2011, 03:51:28 PM »
The reason I ask this question is a discussion on another thread about whether Tilly copied CBM's template holes or whether he got the inspiration from the originals. Can someone claim title to a "template" when that template is based on an original of someone else's making. If the answer is no, how many templates does CBM actually have ?

Thoughts ?

Niall

Bill_McBride

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 04:26:21 PM »
Niall, I think the good "template holes" are basically applying an interesting design element to a piece of topography that is suitable for creation of that element without a whole lot of earth moving.  For examples, a sloped and tilted hillside that yields a Redan, or a Hogback fairway.  We saw both of those, and a lot more, at the new Old Macdonald course at Bandon Dunes.

I don't think you can copywrite such concepts and execution.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 04:55:57 PM »
Niall,

I think you'd have to say, "yes".

CBM studied the great holes, collectivized the data and strategic elements and distilled the quality concepts/holes into a "set" of templates.

If you look at the playing qualities of these holes, they pass the ultimate test, the test of time.

These holes are as much fun to play today, even with enhanced distance, as they were 100 years ago.

Who stands on the tee at the 9th at Yale and isn't impressed/thrilled by what's presented to them architecturally.

Ditto # 3 and # 4 at NGLA.

I think the real value of any golf course, any hole, is:

Do I want to play it again, and do I want to play it often ?

And while there's a constant within the framework of templates, they never seem to lose that appeal

DMoriarty

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 08:15:58 PM »
Niall, 

I am not sure you are asking.  CBM certainly did not invent the concept of laying out golf holes according to some preconceived template of what a golf hole should be.  Ironically, if anything his work at NGLA was a reaction to the somewhat formulaic approach of the earlier era in American design. 

That said, CBM did popularize the notion of the looking to the great holes abroad, studying their underlying principles, and applying those principles as they fit with the landscape.  In this sense I think Bill has it right above.  It is about emulating principles and applying them as they fit on the landscape.  Likewise I think Bill's two examples - the redan concept and the hog back concept - illustrate the this approach very well.   As CBM and HJ Whigham wrote about the Redan in 1914, "The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any course."  But this really methodology than an "invention" of templates.

Moreover, among other things CBM also popularized the notion of trying to implement certain hole principles and characteristics into golf courses so as to create variety and interest. This can be as general as having a variety of lengths of par threes calling for different clubs and shots or as specific as including A Redan,  Eden, a Short, and Biarritz on a course.   And many of these holes became closely associated with his CBM and those who emulated him, but these holes were based on holes from elsewhere, and so we cannot really say he "invented them" no more than he invented MacKenzie's Lido concept at Lido, and Raynor's dogleg concept at a number of his courses. 

One possible exception may be the Cape concept, which CBM, Whigham, and others thought was an original concept.  But even with the Cape, both CBM and Whigham readily acknowledged that the Cape was essentially a dramatic new application of diagonals, and that diagonals form the foundation for many of CBM's golf holes. 

 Yet the Cape was somewhat unique compared to his other of his holes in that CBM's original golf hole was the model (unlike the Redan for example) and his name for this concept was widely adopted by other designers and implemented into their courses.  The original Cape concept and its variations became quite popular in golden age design across the nation, as did the incorporation of other concepts utilized by CBM.  Both Tillinghast and Flynn wrote about incorporating "Cape Holes" into many of their courses. There is a cape hole at Pine Valley.  At Merion, when it became necessary for Hugh Wilson to shorten Merion's 11th hole,  Wilson replaced one CBM concept with another by turning the Alps hole into a "Cape."

On the other thread the issue was not whether Tillinghast had "copied" CBM.  CBM held no copyright on these concepts.  To me at least, the issue was whether Tillinghast's work had been influenced by CBM, particularly his work at NGLA.  More specifically, the issue was what whether Phillip accurately reflects the reality of the times when he suggests that Tillinghast was not influenced by CBM or that he was not incorporating CBM's "prototypes" into his courses.     

That is where the uniqueness of the Cape comes in.  Because the prototypical "Cape" was CBM's hole, and the name was coined by CBM and/or Whigham, the Cape acts as a pretty good bellwether of CBM's influence over other designers.  If these designers were commonly building holes based on the Cape concept, and if they were referring to these holes and/or greens as "Cape" holes and/or greens, then it seems rather strange to deny that CBM had any influence.

Likewise, when designers who had never studied the great holes overseas were designing Redans and Alps and Edens and Hell Bunkers on Longs, and such, it seems rather convoluted to try to explain the line of influence as somehow bypassing CBM.  Of course this may not apply to Tillinghast, as Phillip has told us repeatedly, he had been to St. Andrews.  Whether he studied the holes at courses like North Berwick or Prestwick, I have no idea.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Scott Warren

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 08:33:42 PM »
Did CBM, Raynor or any of their cohorts ever actually use the word "template" to describe the holes in question.

It seems to me to be a really poor description of what they are and how those men implemented them.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 09:16:03 PM »
Did CBM, Raynor or any of their cohorts ever actually use the word "template" to describe the holes in question.

It seems to me to be a really poor description of what they are and how those men implemented them.


How so ?

David Kelly

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2011, 09:34:48 PM »
Did CBM, Raynor or any of their cohorts ever actually use the word "template" to describe the holes in question.

It seems to me to be a really poor description of what they are and how those men implemented them.


How so ?


At the risk of speaking for Scott - although he and I have discussed this - sometimes it seems that people on GCA get caught up with the term "template" and think of a template hole as being a cookie-cutter replica hole that CBM, or Raynor or someone practicing golf architecture now has just placed on top of the land.  As opposed to what CBM was really doing which was using classic golf hole concepts where they fit in the course of a routing.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 09:47:02 PM »
Did CBM, Raynor or any of their cohorts ever actually use the word "template" to describe the holes in question.

It seems to me to be a really poor description of what they are and how those men implemented them.


o

At the risk of speaking for Scott - although he and I have discussed this - sometimes it seems that people on GCA get caught up with the term "template" and think of a template hole as being a cookie-cutter replica hole that CBM, or Raynor or someone practicing golf architecture now has just placed on top of the land.  As opposed to what CBM was really doing which was using classic golf hole concepts where they fit in the course of a routing.

See my post #1 and then hustle out to Bandon Dunes and play Old Macdonald.  This will validate David's point!

Scott Warren

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 09:57:19 PM »
David's comment is very much what I was getting at.

When I see these holes, I don't see a "template", I see the reproduction of effective, proven strategies with respect to the unique piece land they are built upon, which IMO is pretty close to the antithesis of a "template".

Bill_McBride

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2011, 10:06:00 PM »
David's comment is very much what I was getting at.

When I see these holes, I don't see a "template", I see the reproduction of effective, proven strategies with respect to the unique piece land they are built upon, which IMO is pretty close to the antithesis of a "template".

Yes but the holes are so readily identifiable that it's hard to avoid the use of the term, "template."

DMoriarty

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2011, 10:41:06 PM »
Yes but the holes are so readily identifiable that it's hard to avoid the use of the term, "template."

I'm not so sure about this.   Here is something Henry Leach wrote about the subject in 1920:

The sum total of the charms and virtues of a golfing hole in its own natural surroundings depends on many things, some of them quite indefinable, which no art can transplant nor imitate. I believe that a wise architect, however closely, in fact, he may try to model one of his creations upon some famous hole elsewhere, will hold his peace about it. If he confesses, those who do not know the famous original will call him sycophantic, those who do know it will deem him profane. If he keep silence, his plagiarism will most likely never be guessed at, and his brilliant and novel design will be warmly commended on all hands.

I largely agree with Leach, and think that Old Macdonald is recent proof of how well supposed "templates" can blend into a natural site.  Would anyone have guessed it was a "template" course had they not known its story?  When we know what we are looking for we can pick out some of the templates, but if we knew nothing about OM would anyone have identified the Leven as the Leven?  Or would it just be a great golf hole naturally using what the land had to offer?  (Ironically, one of the most identifiable holes - the Biarritz - might be least consistent with CBM's original concept.)

Or how about the 3rd? It screams Sahara when we are expecting to find a Sahara.  But then isn't the lower 9th at Pacific Dunes a Sahara as well?   But it doesn't scream Sahara in the same way, does it?  

I do think that some holes might jump out a bit, but even here nothing is quite clear cut if the golf hole is solid and uses the land. Compare PD's 17th vs. OM's "Redan," for example.  
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 10:57:10 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2011, 11:03:14 PM »
Did CBM, Raynor or any of their cohorts ever actually use the word "template" to describe the holes in question.

It seems to me to be a really poor description of what they are and how those men implemented them.


How so ?


At the risk of speaking for Scott - although he and I have discussed this - sometimes it seems that people on GCA get caught up with the term "template" and think of a template hole as being a cookie-cutter replica hole that CBM, or Raynor or someone practicing golf architecture now has just placed on top of the land.  As opposed to what CBM was really doing which was using classic golf hole concepts where they fit in the course of a routing.


Like the AKC, I think you can identify purebreds and mongels.

Most of CBM-SR-CB templates are readily identifiable.

As far as fitting them into the routing, since most were manufactured, I don't think that placement in the routing was a difficult task.

While there were variations, such as the reverse redan, and redans and reverse redans on par 4's (The Creek & Fishers Island), they're prett easy to identify.

I think you have to create differentiation through classification.
Pure, hybrid and themed.

The "pure" leap out at you.
The hybrids are recognizable.
The themed are more subtle

I've been fortunatel in that there are a good number of CB course in my area and I've been fortunate enough to play a number of CBM and SR courses as well.

I NEVER cease enjoying play on them, no matter how many times I play them and no matter how many template holes I see.
They remain unique due to their setting, while at the same time providing a familiar challenge that I so enjoy

Tom_Doak

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2011, 11:13:15 PM »
Niall:

The template holes were certainly not Macdonald's own intellectual property, and he would never have said that another architect shouldn't use them.  He considered them the classic forms of design, and something which all architects should use as building blocks, though perhaps not as rigidly as he did.

Tillinghast was just as familiar with the original holes as Macdonald was, though his first course was a handful of years after The National.  And I don't think anyone would say that Shawnee was overtly based on Macdonald's favorite holes.

However, the nomination of many of the templates came from a circa 1901 article in a UK magazine asking great players to discuss and choose the best holes in the UK.  I believe that discussion was prompted by Charles Blair Macdonald in his early thinking about The National, and if so he could probably lay claim to being the true father of templates.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2011, 11:30:16 PM »
Tom Doak,

CBM wrote about the ideal course in 1897, but, I believe it was the article, "Best Hole Discussion" which appeared in the 1901 London, "Golf Illustrated" which galvanized the concept in his mind.

CBM went on to state that it was that "discussion" which inspired him to embark on his "architectural" journey, resulting in trips abroad in 1902, 1904 and 1906 for the express purpose of studying the great holes.

In 1906, in a newspaper article he wrote, he put forth the idea of "copying holes", and I think that was the birth of the concept of "template" holes.

Scott Warren

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2011, 11:41:10 PM »
Pat M:

Quote
They remain unique due to their setting, while at the same time providing a familiar challenge that I so enjoy

That is the very point David Kelly and I were making. Glad you and I are in agreement!

DMoriarty

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2011, 12:45:44 AM »
Tom, out of curiosity I recently read that 1901 ideal hole discussion.  It was interesting but don't think it was prompted by CBM.  That said, he definitely wrote that it influenced him.   He also wrote that he rekindled the discussion/debate in the foreign press while overseas researching NGLA.  Perhaps you are thinking of the later design contest won by MacKenzie?  CBM apparently had a hand in getting that going.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

David Kelly

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2011, 01:06:14 AM »
Did CBM, Raynor or any of their cohorts ever actually use the word "template" to describe the holes in question.

It seems to me to be a really poor description of what they are and how those men implemented them.


o


At the risk of speaking for Scott - although he and I have discussed this - sometimes it seems that people on GCA get caught up with the term "template" and think of a template hole as being a cookie-cutter replica hole that CBM, or Raynor or someone practicing golf architecture now has just placed on top of the land.  As opposed to what CBM was really doing which was using classic golf hole concepts where they fit in the course of a routing.

See my post #1 and then hustle out to Bandon Dunes and play Old Macdonald.  This will validate David's point!

I had high expectations of OM and the course still managed to surpass them. One of the things that makes Old Macdonald special is that there is a lot of subtly in how the template holes are presented while at the same time still being very bold architecture.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 01:26:45 AM by David Kelly »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Carl Rogers

Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2011, 08:01:22 AM »
Niall:

The template holes were certainly not Macdonald's own intellectual property, and he would never have said that another architect shouldn't use them.  He considered them the classic forms of design, and something which all architects should use as building blocks, though perhaps not as rigidly as he did.

Tillinghast was just as familiar with the original holes as Macdonald was, though his first course was a handful of years after The National.  And I don't think anyone would say that Shawnee was overtly based on Macdonald's favorite holes.

However, the nomination of many of the templates came from a circa 1901 article in a UK magazine asking great players to discuss and choose the best holes in the UK.  I believe that discussion was prompted by Charles Blair Macdonald in his early thinking about The National, and if so he could probably lay claim to being the true father of templates.
So to put it succintly, CBM organized, codified and institutionalized the set of precepts.

Niall C

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2011, 06:02:40 PM »
Bill/Tom D

I wasn't suggesting any intellectual property rights for CBM, more should he get the credit. The point I was trying to make in my usual cack-handed way was that there were others before CBM who had identified characteristics in certain holes which were worth copying or replicating, call it what you will. For instance their are numerous examples of descriptions in newspapers of early courses which refer to the Alps hole as though the idea of it were a well known concept. Look at some of the early routing plans Joe Bausch has posted and you note reference to Alps.

Another example, the par 3 4th hole at Killermont that Old Tom designed in 1903 which is a Redan if ever there was one, even with Braids later bunkering scheme.

That being the case should we assume that because an architect designs a redan hole after 1907 that he was copying CBM rather than taking inspiration from the original ? For instance how likely is it that Tilly saw North Berwick before he saw CBM's version of the Redan ?

Scott/David K,

I can't help thinking that whether CBM or anyone else largely re-created a particular hole design out of nothing or whether he found a bit of land that suited that design is neither here nor there in terms of the use of that design. The fact is that he used the concept of entire holes in a way which suggests the original provided the template so I think its absolutely a valid term. Nor in my book should it be thought of as a derisory term.

As an aside when CBM first muted NGLA he talked about copying the best holes and was met with derision at least on this side of the pond, which is why I suspect he made later comments taking a step back from his earlier comments.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2011, 06:18:04 PM »
Niall, 

I am not sure you are asking.  CBM certainly did not invent the concept of laying out golf holes according to some preconceived template of what a golf hole should be.  Ironically, if anything his work at NGLA was a reaction to the somewhat formulaic approach of the earlier era in American design. 

That said, CBM did popularize the notion of the looking to the great holes abroad, studying their underlying principles, and applying those principles as they fit with the landscape.  In this sense I think Bill has it right above.  It is about emulating principles and applying them as they fit on the landscape.  Likewise I think Bill's two examples - the redan concept and the hog back concept - illustrate the this approach very well.   As CBM and HJ Whigham wrote about the Redan in 1914, "The principle can be used with an infinite number of variations on any course."  But this really methodology than an "invention" of templates.

Moreover, among other things CBM also popularized the notion of trying to implement certain hole principles and characteristics into golf courses so as to create variety and interest. This can be as general as having a variety of lengths of par threes calling for different clubs and shots or as specific as including A Redan,  Eden, a Short, and Biarritz on a course.   And many of these holes became closely associated with his CBM and those who emulated him, but these holes were based on holes from elsewhere, and so we cannot really say he "invented them" no more than he invented MacKenzie's Lido concept at Lido, and Raynor's dogleg concept at a number of his courses. 

One possible exception may be the Cape concept, which CBM, Whigham, and others thought was an original concept.  But even with the Cape, both CBM and Whigham readily acknowledged that the Cape was essentially a dramatic new application of diagonals, and that diagonals form the foundation for many of CBM's golf holes. 

 Yet the Cape was somewhat unique compared to his other of his holes in that CBM's original golf hole was the model (unlike the Redan for example) and his name for this concept was widely adopted by other designers and implemented into their courses.  The original Cape concept and its variations became quite popular in golden age design across the nation, as did the incorporation of other concepts utilized by CBM.  Both Tillinghast and Flynn wrote about incorporating "Cape Holes" into many of their courses. There is a cape hole at Pine Valley.  At Merion, when it became necessary for Hugh Wilson to shorten Merion's 11th hole,  Wilson replaced one CBM concept with another by turning the Alps hole into a "Cape."

On the other thread the issue was not whether Tillinghast had "copied" CBM.  CBM held no copyright on these concepts.  To me at least, the issue was whether Tillinghast's work had been influenced by CBM, particularly his work at NGLA.  More specifically, the issue was what whether Phillip accurately reflects the reality of the times when he suggests that Tillinghast was not influenced by CBM or that he was not incorporating CBM's "prototypes" into his courses.     

That is where the uniqueness of the Cape comes in.  Because the prototypical "Cape" was CBM's hole, and the name was coined by CBM and/or Whigham, the Cape acts as a pretty good bellwether of CBM's influence over other designers.  If these designers were commonly building holes based on the Cape concept, and if they were referring to these holes and/or greens as "Cape" holes and/or greens, then it seems rather strange to deny that CBM had any influence.

Likewise, when designers who had never studied the great holes overseas were designing Redans and Alps and Edens and Hell Bunkers on Longs, and such, it seems rather convoluted to try to explain the line of influence as somehow bypassing CBM.  Of course this may not apply to Tillinghast, as Phillip has told us repeatedly, he had been to St. Andrews.  Whether he studied the holes at courses like North Berwick or Prestwick, I have no idea.

David,

You make a lot of interesting points in your post that I would love to discuss by posting my comments beside them in a Mucci type of way but sadly that skill is beyond me so let me respond specifically to your comments on the Cape hole.

I'm not entirely sure of what fully constitutes a CBM Cape hole having never seen one in the flesh as it were but from previous threads on the subject I take it that while the Cape hole as a whole is a new concept it is made up of component parts which are not original. To take your point as that being a bellweather for CBM's influence on other designers, if they use only part of the design how do you determine whether they got that from CBM's Cape or elsewhere ? Perhaps a pointless question but just interested in the assumptions made that CBM was the starting point.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2011, 06:27:33 PM »
Niall,

I think you'd have to say, "yes".

CBM studied the great holes, collectivized the data and strategic elements and distilled the quality concepts/holes into a "set" of templates.

If you look at the playing qualities of these holes, they pass the ultimate test, the test of time.

These holes are as much fun to play today, even with enhanced distance, as they were 100 years ago.

Who stands on the tee at the 9th at Yale and isn't impressed/thrilled by what's presented to them architecturally.

Ditto # 3 and # 4 at NGLA.

I think the real value of any golf course, any hole, is:

Do I want to play it again, and do I want to play it often ?

And while there's a constant within the framework of templates, they never seem to lose that appeal

Patrick

I wouldn't argue that CBM doesn't deserve credit for popularising or defining or indeed refining the concepts of classic holes. The question I was posing was whether he gets credit for the template where the original design wasn't his work, you say yes, and you state your case which basically rests on the quality of his work. If for a moment you were to except that others copied the redan before CBM, is he still due the credit ?

I just wonder whether its right to treat NGLA as the birthplace of it all.

Niall

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2011, 07:27:33 PM »
Niall,
I think that in some of those old articles the word "Alps" is shorthand for Alpinisation, or mounding, which isn't an Alps hole per se.

Macdonald saw all the concepts as they existed on the ground, he 'brought' them over from the UK, and used them to his liking.
You mentioned Tillie, and I think Phil Young has said it's known that he was at St. Andrews, but that it's not known where else he was or what else he saw in the UK.

I think that's somewhat of a defining line, did the architect travel overseas to see the original or not. Once CBM brought his portfolio of ideas and applied them at NGLA it becomes hard to determine where any other architect got the idea from, unless he too has been to see the originals. If he hasn't been over to see them then it's probably fair to say he was influenced by CBM.
  
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 07:33:53 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil_the_Author

Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 07:51:19 PM »
David,

Let’s see if I can clear this up for you regarding Tilly’s use of CBM’s “Cape” template type hole.

I think what you wrote is quite accurate: “Yet the Cape was somewhat unique compared to his other of his holes in that CBM's original golf hole was the model (unlike the Redan for example) and his name for this concept was widely adopted by other designers and implemented into their courses.”

So then, did CBM or Whigam put into print their exact definition of what their unique “Cape” hole was? By this I mean their actually written definition? If not, would you accept George Bahto’s definition as HE believes CBM to have defined it?

From “The Evangelist of Golf” on page 54:



You then stated just a bit further on, “Both Tillinghast and Flynn wrote about incorporating "Cape Holes" into many of their courses…”

Now according to you, Tilly’s design philosophy, including early on, was influenced by CBM. This despite Tilly himself having written that he and his friend “Charlie” argued continuously through the years over the fact that they had distinctly DIFFERENT design philosophies and that Tilly stated specifically that he was very much against the idea of using templates as CBM did.

I say that because you also wrote, “On the other thread the issue was not whether Tillinghast had "copied" CBM.  CBM held no copyright on these concepts.  To me at least, the issue was whether Tillinghast's work had been influenced by CBM, particularly his work at NGLA.  More specifically, the issue was what whether Phillip accurately reflects the reality of the times when he suggests that Tillinghast was not influenced by CBM or that he was not incorporating CBM's "prototypes" into his courses.”     

If that were the case then we should see Tilly both admitting to it instead of denying it AND that his definitions of hole types were the same as CBM’s. The fact is that they AREN’T! Let us use the example of the “Cape hole” as defined above. Compare that to Tilly’s own definition which was published in 1916 and then copied into this page from his 1917 booklet “Planning A Golf Course.”



There is no question that these definitions are decidedly different. In fact George refers to this as a “mistaken” definition of the “Cape” hole type that came into existence (according to him but we can see that is incorrect) AFTER the original Cape Hole’s green at the National was changed in the 1920’s; in other words, quite a few years after tilly had already built his own “Cape” holes of a distinctly different type and definition.

Let me give you an example of one of Tilly’s. The 12th hole at Winged Foot West is named (by Tilly) “Cape.” Now why would he name a 487-yard par-five “Cape?” The approach shot into the green is from the right side, short and straight up the gut of the putting surface. So how could this possibly be a “Cape” hole? It is because he designed it as a REACHABLE in two shots par-5. Looked at from that perspective the green juts and turns left just before the putting surface, EXACTLY as he defined it in 1916.

So David, just because a hole is named a “Cape” doesn’t mean that it is either the same type of hole that CBM designed and defined nor is it influenced by him.

Jim Kennedy, yes it is known where else he was during his three trips to the UK in 1895, 1898 & 1901. He played nearly every great course in Scotland and England as he travelled throughout the realm. This is how he became close friends with so many of the older UK professionals such as Ben Sayers who spent a great deal of time with him when he came over here to visit his son.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2011, 07:59:19 PM »
Phil,
My mistake, thanks for the clarification.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Peter Pallotta

Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2011, 08:09:19 PM »
Niall - to get back to your original question: yes, I think CBM should be credited with inventing/conceiving of the very concept of a template (in gca terms).  That self-conscious (for lack of a better word) awareness/naming of the great old holes and the principles on which they were based, and the use of these "templates" as the ideal basis for gca in America -- yes, I think that was CBM's doing, and to his great credit.  I think it was a -- maybe even the -- critical step in the maturation of the art and craft that is golf design.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 08:11:11 PM by PPallotta »

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