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DMoriarty

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2011, 05:04:57 PM »
I wasn't focusing on Tilly as such but really using him as an example to illustrate the point that CBM didn't invent the template concept, and that while he maybe elevated it to an art form and in the process refined certain hole designs, in parallel to what he was doing and even before he did what he did others were doing something similar.
 

Perhaps others such as Old Tom may have been doing something similar abroad, but in the US, to whom are you referring?  Who were "the others" who were doing something similar before CBM?   Who in the United States was explicitly identifying specific fundamental concepts underpinning the great golf holes abroad and then modeling holes here after those specific holes and their underlying principles?   And where are these golf holes?

Early you mentioned that there "are numerous examples of descriptions in newspapers of early courses which refer to the Alps hole as though the idea of it were a well known concept. Look at some of the early routing plans Joe Bausch has posted and you note reference to Alps."    I agree that holes called "the Alps" existed, but not sure what you mean when you write "as though the idea of it were a well known concept."  The "idea of" what?   What "well known concept"  was represented by these  "Alps" holes?  My understanding was that "Alps" was a generic term used to describe hills on a golf course and Himalaya's was another such term, and that "Alps" was not at all tied to any particular hole concept or any particular golf hole.    Prestwick's Alps hole may have been the most famous of these, but weren't there many holes not based on Prestwick's Alps Hole but nonetheless sharing its name?   For example, wasn't there a yard 230 "Alps" hole at Hoylake?  

I am not so sure there was any idea or "well known concept" beyond this generic connotation, and so I see little reason to conclude that the various early holes called "Alps" in the United States have any common characteristic other than that they all involved hills.

Here are some early American examples of "Alps" holes:
-  Tuxedo had a blind par three called the alps.  In 1897 it was listed at 106 yards.  
-  Baltusrol had an "Alps Hole"  listed at 200 yards in 1903.
-  Midlothian (Tweedie) had a 478 yard hole called "The Alps."  A 1901 report noted that this hole was "distinguished by an unusually high cop-bunker, but it [was] only fifty yards from the tee."
-  Myopia had a hole originally called "Hills" but at some point early on the name was change to "the Alps."  It was originally around 200 yards and played over two rolling hills.  One article compared it to the Maiden at Sandwich (but the article did not suggest it was actually based upon the Maiden hole.   Over time Myopia's evolved into a longer hole, but the Alps/hills were a feature of the first shot.   The hole was further altered after Hutchinson criticized the course after his 1910 tour with CBM.  
-  Ardsley Park had an Alps Hole of approx. 370 yards.  I've posted a from 1896 photo below.  


From the descriptions it doesn't seem like any of these holes were based on Prestwick's Alps or any any other particular hole.   I guess one could argue that the Alps at Ardsley park could have been because at least the hole length is about right and the "alps" feature in about the right spot.   But I think Willie Dunn used the term "Alps" to describe his artificial irregular mounds like those at Ardsley.  
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 09:24:06 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2011, 05:54:58 PM »
I wasn't focusing on Tilly as such but really using him as an example to illustrate the point that CBM didn't invent the template concept, and that while he maybe elevated it to an art form and in the process refined certain hole designs, in parallel to what he was doing and even before he did what he did others were doing something similar.
 

Perhaps others such as Old Tom may have been doing something similar abroad, but in the US, to whom are you referring?  Who were "the others" who were doing something similar before CBM?   Who in the United States was explicitly identifying specific fundamental concepts underpinning the great golf holes abroad and then modeling holes here after those specific holes and their underlying principles?   And where are these golf holes?

Early you mentioned that there "are numerous examples of descriptions in newspapers of early courses which refer to the Alps hole as though the idea of it were a well known concept. Look at some of the early routing plans Joe Bausch has posted and you note reference to Alps."    I agree that holes called "the Alps" existed, but not sure what you mean when you write "as though the idea of it were a well known concept."  The "idea of" what?   What "well known concept"  was represented by these  "Alps" holes?  My understanding was that "Alps" was a generic term used to describe hills on a golf course and Himalaya's was another such term, and that "Alps" was not at all tied to any particular hole concept or any particular golf hole.    Prestwick's Alps hole may have been the most famous of these, but weren't there many holes not based on Prestwick's Alps Hole but nonetheless sharing its name?   For example, wasn't there a yard 230 "Alps" hole at Hoylake?  

I am not so sure there was any idea or "well known concept" beyond this generic connotation, and so I see little reason to conclude that the various early holes called "Alps" in the United States have any common characteristic other than that they all involved hills.

Here are some early American examples of "Alps" holes:
-  Tuxedo had a blind par three called the alps.  In 1897 it was listed at 106 yards.  
-  Baltusrol had an "Alps Hole"  listed at 200 yards in 1903.
-  Midlothian (Tweedie) had a 478 yard hole called "The Alps."  A 1901 report noted that this hole was "distinguished by an unusually high cop-bunker, but it [was] only fifty yards from the tee."
-  Myopia had a hole originally called "Hills" but at some point early on the name was change to "the Alps."  It was originally around 200 yards and played over two rolling hills.  One article compared it to the Maiden at Sandwich (but the article did not suggest it was actually based upon the Maiden hole.   Over time Myopia's evolved into a longer hole, but the Alps/hills were a feature of the first shot.   The hole was further altered after Hutchinson criticized the course after his 1910 tour with CBM.  
-  Ardsley Park had an Alps Hole of approx. 370 yards.  I've posted a from 1896 photo below.  


From the descriptions it doesn't seem like any of these holes were based on Prestwick's Alps or any any other particular hole.   I guess one could argue that the Alps at Ardsley park could have been because at least the hole length is about right and the "alps" feature in about the right spot.   But I think Willie Dunn used the term "Alps" to describe his artificial irregular mounds like those at Ardsley.  

The "Alps" hole at Hoylake is a 180-200 yard par 3 on flat terrain that has a big mound behind it, not in front of it.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2011, 06:43:55 PM »
Thanks for posting the photo Bill.   I think the hole was a bit longer and blind initially, but the point is the same.   Hoylake's Alps and Prestick's Alps are not based on any single "well-known concept" but rather are called "Alps" because they both feature hills.

Here is a photo of the hole from June 1913 American Golfer.  Note the hole is described as blind.



Pin is in the far right of photo.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 06:46:13 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ?
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2011, 02:42:17 PM »
David

The "to whom I was referring" were the itinerant pro's who went over to the US in the early days.

I am not so sure there was any idea or "well known concept" beyond this generic connotation, and so I see little reason to conclude that the various early holes called "Alps" in the United States have any common characteristic other than that they all involved hills.

That may well be the case and I wouldn't argue the point to any great degree but at a base level you have different architects using a similar feature in a similar way and on occasion calling it by the same name. It might be very crude in that it was the principle of a mound in front of a green (I told you it was crude !) but the ideas the same. The mound might not be the same size, the green might be in different position and the approach shot might be from a different length but the principal/concept/idea would be the same.

I really am in no position to argue on US courses so won't try but please feel free to post other examples and photo's.

Niall

Sean_A

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Re: Template Holes. Did CBM really invent them ? New
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2011, 04:17:53 PM »
I am not trying to throw a spanner in the works, but I would think that the Alps concept is a direct homage to Prestwick's 17th.  We must remember that the Himalaya hole (in essence no different from many Alps holes) was built at Prestwick (the 5th) quite early on (yet still  not part of the original course), but later folks still wanted to call their blind hill climbers an Alps.  I think that is because Prestwick's Alps was considered The Original.  

It would be interesting to know if the Himalaya hole was called thus because it was a different par to the Alps or even because there was no bunker to contend with.   Maybe Himalya was just another obvious name for a mountainous hole.  Like Burnham's Majuba, maybe recent events had a hand in Alps being the primo name.  However, if Prestwick's original was called a Himalaya I believe Alps would now be called Himalayas because it was acknowledged as the original.  

Niall

The way "template" is mistakingly used for this particualr situation, yes, CBm can take credit. 

Ciao  
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 04:20:11 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

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