[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

Thank you for proving why I dislike templates so much.  There is zero about that hole or that green site which would suggest a Biarritz, that I can think of.

The only different idea I had to do the hole was to move the green over to where the fairway wraps around and enters at the back left, and make a wide, shallow green there -- that would have been very different from the other three holes.  But it would have been a very difficult shot to judge, and the marram grass at the back would have killed you if you happened to pure a shot through the wind.  And that green site would be a long way from #17 tee.

Tom:

Perhaps I'm misguided on this one, but the down hill tee shot reminded me a bit of the same shots at Yale and Old Mac.  I thought there would be a bit more challenge to the 16th if the various levels on the green were slightly more defined, making it more difficult to find and hold the pinned area.  I wasn't suggesting a "template" Biarritz, which would be out of character with the natural feel of Barnbougle Dunes.  Rather, a pronouncement of the left to right movement of the green by creating more of a swale running off to the right.  This would make it harder to find the back ledge, and could make for some interesting club choices when playing to a front pin.  With the wind predominantly in your face, you'd have the ability to play a lofted shot hoping to hold the front, while still having the options to go left or chase a ball through the swale to reach a back pin.

Just my humble thoughts.

Sven

[Matthew Mollica]

Tom, you raise a good point about that land to the right of the 16th green. It does get boggy from time to time.

Perhaps extending the existing green a little forward and left might be an option? It could result in a green segment where a shorter, more lofted, and softer landing shot is needed, where the existing bunker comes into the equation a little more?

Your point of the marram at the back swallowing balls sort of states what the hole is like currently, in my experience anyway. There's days at Barnbougle where a really long iron is required at 16. From the low tee, balls are not seen on landing. Often times I've hit what I thought was a good shot, a bullet with a 2 iron or 3 iron, only to never see it again, presumably somewhere in the back, in the long grass.

MM

[Sean Walsh]

Tom,

Given the constraints you have articulated I can now better understand why this hole poses such a challenge to get right.  The options are limited. 

In my mind it's is either:

Stick with the green exactly where it is but with some slight modifications so that every shot doesn't automatically feed right to left once it lands.

Move the green forward so the majority of it is between the fronting bunker and the bunker on the hill to the left. In the process raising what is currently the front of the green to leave a large swale at the back and right of the green.  I really can't remember what teeing options you currently have between the 15th and the current set of tees but this change would also probably benefit from moving the tees back (except for the high tee which could remain - and be a very tricky angle) about 20 yards.

The third option would be to push the green back and onto the hill to the left of the rear bunker.  The downside of this is that the hole then becomes an absolute bear back into the wind and probably approaching 190 yards.  It also removes that fronting bunker from play which would be a shame.   

[Kevin Pallier]

I do agree with David more than with Kevin -- if you take #16 out of the picture, the other three short holes at Barnbougle are probably the best set of par-3's we've ever built.

Tom

Better than Old Mac and Pacific Dunes ?

IMO #7 is easily the best of the collection at BD but I'm not convinced as a unit - BD's are as good as those I mention above. I like 5 and the green on 13 is really good but 16 really lets the others down.

I prefer RMW / KH and even LF's P3 sets over BD.

[Terry Thornton]

..... a bullet with a 2 iron or 3 iron, ...........

MM

MM,
are they the ones that only climb about 25 metres?

I don't have an aerial in front of me, would there be room to move the lower tees left & orient the green such that the large dune that is currently front left was directly in the line of play. Given pin position you would play left/right of it or directly over to a flag hidden from the tee?
(all this would require some dirt moving obviously)
This leads to 2 other changes; a)the hole would play more across the prevailing wind but still against it; b) The now unused top tee could now be the site for my house.....just saying.

[Scott Warren]

Given the healthy supply of short fours on the course, I'd have liked a really long three perhaps like 4 at StAB requiring a hybrid or wood.

Into a stiff breeze it might not be reachable for some, but it would continue to blur the line of "par" and its importance the way 4, 7, 8 and 12 already do.

Perhaps moving the 16th green back and left to create such a hole?

[James Bennett]

I have only played Barnbougle in the last 6 motnhs, and actually played LF first.

I wonder whether there were the same 'issues' with Barnbougle 16 prior to Lost Farm 15 being built.

Were the three downhill par 3's discussed as much prior to six months ago?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Guys, I too have not been able to keep up with this great thread as much as I'd have liked, also – great work Gun Show.

I think the two top tees, white and Blue (Melaleuca and Marrum), are strictly a tourist stop, should be deleted as tee boxes and changed to 'viewing platform', as there is not a lot of good golf from up there, I did see an Ace from the top tee in late Feb and 4 days earlier another Ace from our GCA Mr. Cole from the Boobs tee.

My favourite tee on 16 and IMO, by far the best tee - is the Forrester Black tee, just off to the back left of 15 green, it plays longer and at 165m+ to a back pin is pretty tough, add in prevailing breeze of a couple of clubs and at 175-185m/over 200 yards - straight into the teeth, it plays semi blind over the large front bunker and a daunting shot - I think that pretty much covers Scott's brief - I also believe this provides a decent balance for the breezes and hole 5 - where either 5 or 16 has the prevailing and the other down breeze.
(one small criticism is that the turf left of the green on the slope, does not always seem to play as it was intended(?), a ball can sometimes stop halfway down the slope – more for short game shots though.)

TD: But that is not my suggestion, Barnbougle's biggest challenge, again, IMO, is the depth of the course from the Dunes and how the wind, always dominant, can be better utilised.
Suggestion - possibly keep all the tees (perhaps add another tee west toward the 17 tee), but reverse them and play to a green set up on top of the dune LEFT of the LEFT bunker(or on top of this bunker) toward the 14th tee – keep the existing green surface as short cut fairway, and have a long narrow green that offers a miss to the right and the prevailing breeze, treacherous shot if you miss right, area left of green left as wild sand and dunes. I am guessing it would play between 130 and 150 m, but without the teeth of either Westerly or Easterly – a cross breeze shot demanding something certainly different on the B9, and in fact I do not think a shot in this direction across the 18. I think that distance would sit nicely amongst the rest of the P3’s. A Shorter hole is always going to be more fun and also more playable for the different wind speeds.
It would play away from the Forrester River, standing on the tee, aspects either side would be down 15 and 17,  but it would increase walk from 16 green to 17 tee. Potential for the tees to have a spread of 100m from 15 green to 17 tee providing great options for different tee shots -  with your back to LF?? The larger front bunker can stay also.

[Kyle Henderson]

Thanks to all of the participants. As I'd hoped, there were some tasty morsels of information offered by the architect and some of Barnbougle's most dedicated customers.

For those who have yet to visit Tasmania, hopefully you are now inspired to make the trip.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Kyle,
Thanks very much for your photo tour and thread, I know you had a hectic period upon your return stateside, so a lot of work required to produce this, well done - it is very much appreciated.
Brett

[David_Elvins]

I am just curious if anyone actually has an idea for how to make #16 different and better.  I have always been open to suggestion there -- in fact,

I would just cut it out of the routing.  The back tee at 17 is close to 15 green so nothing would be missed.

 If you removed 16 at Barnbougle and 18A at Lost Farm (ther is no real incentive to play it) out of their respective courses that leaves a 17 hole course and a 19 hole course.  

You would have the best 17 hole course on the planet next to the best 19 hole course on the planet next door to each other. great for marketing.

If players feel that they really really really have to have an 18 hole course, you make 13A at Lost Farm, part of Barnbougle Dunes.  It is a better hole than 16 at Barnbougle, improving the course, and may also encouraging players to play both courses.  ie.  When players walk off 18 (now 17 at Barnbougle) the pro shop tells them tey have to get in their car and drive 3 miles to finish the round by playing 13A.  They think to themselves "If we are going to drive over there, we may as well play Lost Farm whilst we are there.  "

If you are interested in approaching Bill Coore about borrowing 13A from Lost Farm for your course, let me know and I can write more on this plan and how to make it work.  

[Tom_Doak]

If you are interested in approaching Bill Coore about borrowing 13A from Lost Farm for your course, let me know and I can write more on this plan and how to make it work.  

I think they'll have to get that lawsuit settled first.

[David_Elvins]

If you are interested in approaching Bill Coore about borrowing 13A from Lost Farm for your course, let me know and I can write more on this plan and how to make it work.  

I think they'll have to get that lawsuit settled first.

Thats the beauty of the plan, Tom.  The Barnbougle investors get 1/19th of Lost Farm - which seems about right. 

[Shane Gurnett]

I would just cut it out of the routing.  The back tee at 17 is close to 15 green so nothing would be missed.

I am just curious if anyone actually has an idea for how to make #16 different and better.  I have always been open to suggestion there -- in fact,

I've never taken much notice, but is there any room over the back of the 14th green to build a short par 3 in the direction to the estuary?

[Colin Macqueen]

Kyle,
This pictorial and the associated comments have been simply wonderful.  It will make it a "doddle" for me now to entice my golfing mates to make the pilgrimage from here in Brisbane. The unfolding Lost Farm thread will do no harm at all! Both of these combined with Sven's You Tube extravaganzas make it a foregone conclusion.
Many thanks to you both.
Colin.

[Sven Nilsen]

Kyle, great tour.  Wonderful commentary, and its always great to get Tom's take on his work.

For those that missed it, and for those who want to see it again, here's the youtube link for the Barnbougle Dunes video Colin mentioned above:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbo7CkPCTF8.

[Anthony Gray]

Bump

[Brett_Morrissy]

Anthony
I was down there last weekend for 90 holes, not a cloud in the sky, beautiful light breezes, and perfect golf weather.

Courses are both in great knick, and Lost Farm just continues to improve on each visit, the turf is getting stronger and better.

To the comments of the last couple of pages, I still think there are two problems with BD,
1. 16 is the worst hole in the routing IMO only( I hope when dispute is sorted out, that some funds will be allocate to improve this and the next)
2. Tee shot on 18, would be great to see something done with this, I would love to the see the Beach more "in play", with a risk reward carry scenario on the tee shot and perhaps some visibility of the green site if possible. The blind drive is a al bore on the last tee shot. Probably the back tee is still the best tee shot on this hole.

And one comment, that is just that, not an issue, but an observation.

#8: as you leave the #7 green, I would have thought, (and the length of the green to tee walk suggests that it was a possibility) that the natural thing to do, would be to walk straight up onto the beach head dune(more views) to play it as a long par 5, the green and approach would still play exactly the same. Some clearing out of scrub, marram and softening of the dune left of existing boobs tee required, front tees could still be from the existing boobs.
I know there are the steep dunes making the chute tee shot quite narrow, but I am only talking about adding 50m to the Boobs and Black tees, not all the way back to the 7green. Also acknowledge ajames an comment, that important to avoid a drive to a flat area, 2nd over fairway bluff and approach to green.
So instead of being the toughest P4 I've ever played, it would be the toughest P5 I've ever played. Optional play off the existing tees to play as a par 4 if desired.

The fact that it would change the F9 to 2 x P5 and a par of 36, would not be the incentive to change it.

We discussed while down there, that of course, if it stays as it is, it will become infamous in the many years to come.

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