[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

Great shots taken.

Quick question -- was this the first time you had played the course ?

If so -- impressions ?

And if you have -- where would you rate it among the other courses you have played in the greater GAP area ?

[JNC Lyon]

1 and 2 speak for themselves: great, bold greensites, tons of recovery options.

3 is a neat hole, and I like how the fairway contours dictate the strategy.  However, the hole is a little too cramped.  Shouldn't the club cut those trees back, especially on the right hand side?  The pines just to the right of the caddie in the fourth photo are unnecessary.

Matt,

From what I remember, I've only played GN and Camp Creek.  GN is way better than CC.  I've made a point to avoid Fazio in the past (can you guess why?), but after Galloway I'd like to see some of his better courses.

[John Shimp]

Matt
What is your top Fazio list? 75 is a lot to pull from.

[Carl Nichols]

JNC-
You've made a point to avoid Fazio courses after playing just one of them? 

[JNC Lyon]

JNC-
You've made a point to avoid Fazio courses after playing just one of them? 

Carl,

That's the only original Fazio layout I've played.  I have some strong opinions about his renovation work, particularly at Oak Hill, that leads me to avoid his architecture.  Additionally, his golf courses tend to be very expensive to play, and they are not worth playing over cheaper layouts.  Galloway changed my mind on his original stuff. 

[Jerry Kluger]

I think GN is a course where a caddie can really help - what did you guys think - did he really help you with the shots and reading the greens? Imagine those greens when they are running at about 11 or 12.

[JNC Lyon]

Jerry,

My guy, Chris, helped out a ton, especially around the greens.  Even running at winter speeds, the greens were still very tricky the first time around.  I would have been 3 to 4 shots higher had I not had him on the bag.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Help me out how do you find the nerve to trash TF when you've only personally played two (2) of his designs ?

I don't doubt the guy has made a mess of certain classic redesigns / upgrades -- call them what one will. But he's got enogh ammo in the tank to shoot some serious top name courses forward.

That's why I said what I said to your take on Bay at Seaview -- there's a tendency to shoot some grandioise blanket statement when the personal homework side is really light. Research papers usually do mega research before extapolating such a narrow premise into a much wider viewpoint.

John S:

Been asked that before ...

If I had list a few of the best TF I have played -- would include the following in no particular order ...

Glenwild (UT)
Karsten Creek (OK)
Galloway National (NJ)
Shadow Creek (NV)
Martis Camp (CA)
Victoria National (IN)
Dallas National (TX)

drop down a notch to the likes of

Black Diamond (original 18 / FL)
The Preserve (CA)
Pinehurst # 8 (NC)
give me a bit of time and I might add a few more to the elite seven (7) I cited above.

*Have not played Alotian and Gozzer Ranch -- yet !

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Galloway being a very good course is an aesthetic illusion.  The course plays brutally tough when playing firm and fast-normal seasonal conditions.  Like all Fazio courses, it is completely devoid of strategy and preferred shotmaking angles.  At least the aesthetics are wonderful.  Though a tough moderately short hole, the 2nd has a green that fails to hold anything hit. From the championship tee in a pretty good right to left wind-normal prevailing direction.  In addition, rather than risk reward, you are simply forced to lay up on holes 3, 4, 7, 12, 14.  This may be really good for a Fazio, but does not measure up among the best of NJ

[Joe Bausch]

Jerry,

My guy, Chris, helped out a ton, especially around the greens.  Even running at winter speeds, the greens were still very tricky the first time around.  I would have been 3 to 4 shots higher had I not had him on the bag.

You would have been 2 to 3 shots lower if you could have made some birdie putts.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

Fair points, although, like I've said before, I don't think I need to play dozens of Fazio courses to have an opinion on his work.  It's not like I live in a vacuum where I only play two Fazio courses and then know absolutely zero about his other work.  I know he likes to move a lot of earth and spend a lot of money on his courses.  I also realize he takes on a large amount of work, which will affect his total body of architecture.  I've read countless descriptions of his golf courses, some positive and some negative.  In that way, I am familiar with his work.

More importantly, as you know, I am intimately familiar with his renovation attempts at Oak Hill.  These so-called "upgrades," both in the 1970s and now, are awkward pieces of schlock.  He has crippled the routing in multiple places and built golf holes that belong on a Florida muni.  He makes no attempt to blend his renovation work with the rest of the layout.  The club (I don't quite know why) brought his group in to touch up these holes this past fall.  While they made minor improvements, the holes still stick out like sore thumbs compared to the rest of the layout.  His work at Oak Hill reveals an attitude of disregard for classic architecture and lack of knowledge about how golf courses fit into the land.  The Oak Hill holes dramatically affect my impression of his architecture.

In many ways, Galloway will change my impression of his original architecture.  Galloway is a lot of fun to play and blends in very well with the Southern New Jersey landscape.  I had a ball playing GN, and I give a ton of credit to Fazio for doing what he did there. Perhaps my dislike for Fazio's work stems more from his renovation work than his original layouts. Galloway convinces me that his original work is worthing looking at in the future.

Matt, you can shred me all you want for having a "personal homework side" that is really light.  I'm not claiming to be an expert on Fazio's complete body of work, but I have a solid concept of his philosophy, and it's not completely to my liking.  Even so, I'll make an effort to see his best layouts in the future.

[JNC Lyon]

Jerry,

My guy, Chris, helped out a ton, especially around the greens.  Even running at winter speeds, the greens were still very tricky the first time around.  I would have been 3 to 4 shots higher had I not had him on the bag.

You would have been 2 to 3 shots lower if you could have made some birdie putts.

Truth.  There is only so much the caddie can do.  Those ones on 13 and 18 still haunt me.  What other shitty courses did you play this weekend?

[Joe Bausch]

Jerry,

My guy, Chris, helped out a ton, especially around the greens.  Even running at winter speeds, the greens were still very tricky the first time around.  I would have been 3 to 4 shots higher had I not had him on the bag.

You would have been 2 to 3 shots lower if you could have made some birdie putts.

Truth.  There is only so much the caddie can do.  Those ones on 13 and 18 still haunt me.  What other shitty courses did you play this weekend?

Well, since you asked, there is this less recognized Ross course near my house in St. Davids. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

No doubt that Galloway is one Fazio's better courses. I prefer the nearby Hidden Creek. Different strokes for different folks.

[Sev K-H Keil]

To add to the Fazio discussion, I've played somewhere between 25-30 TF courses, here are my personal favorites:

Most favorite:
Galloway National (clearly biased)
Shadow Creek
Butler National
Black Diamond Quarry (for the 5 Quarry holes)
WW Pine Barrens
Dallas National
Caves Valley
Red Sky
Estancia
Pelican Hill

Least favorite:
Glen Club
Bayou Club
Atunyote Golf Club

[Mark McKeever]

Jerry,

My guy, Chris, helped out a ton, especially around the greens.  Even running at winter speeds, the greens were still very tricky the first time around.  I would have been 3 to 4 shots higher had I not had him on the bag.

You would have been 2 to 3 shots lower if you could have made some birdie putts.

Truth.  There is only so much the caddie can do.  Those ones on 13 and 18 still haunt me.  What other shitty courses did you play this weekend?

Well, since you asked, there is this less recognized Ross course near my house in St. Davids. 

I think there needs to be a GCA gathering at St. Davids.  A Ross layout with a Forse restoration!

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Robert MD:

Really ?

Forward me the names of courses in NJ that are clearly superior to GN -- oh, no doubt, you will have Pine Valley and Plainfield and likely Ridgewood ahead of it but I don't see Baltusrol Lower or Upper touching it. The common and tired refrain that TF has no strategic impulses is getting tiresome -- there's plenty there - clearly, if one is paying attention.

[JNC Lyon]

Like all Fazio courses, it is completely devoid of strategy and preferred shotmaking angles.   

Robert,

There are several holes out there that have a ton of options and strategy.  Of the holes you listed, only 3 (and 14, because it is a par three) is a non-driver hole.  However, 3's fairway contours make for some great options off the tee, even if you are going with a long iron.  The easy play is to the lower left half of the fairway, which leaves an obscured approach over the fronting bunker.  The riskier play is to the high right side of the fairway, which leaves a good view of the green but also flirts with the woods on the left.

The other par fours you name also have plenty of options, and they are all driver holes.  I hit my Sunday best on 7 and was well short of the end of the fairway.  4 takes a big tee shot to run out of room, and there is plenty of width out there to create a decision with respect to the left fairway bunker.

Your assessment of 2 is also flawed.  We played in a stiff breeze yesterday that was behind us and out of the right.  I hit a nine-iron that held some 20 feet beyond the front left pin in Joe's picture.  The chipping area to the left is diabolical, but there is some room to miss short left.  Moreover, the green is massive, with plenty of forgiveness on shots that do not have proper distance control.  Good players might find it too tough as a short par three, but that argument does not wash with me.

[JNC Lyon]

Jerry,

My guy, Chris, helped out a ton, especially around the greens.  Even running at winter speeds, the greens were still very tricky the first time around.  I would have been 3 to 4 shots higher had I not had him on the bag.

You would have been 2 to 3 shots lower if you could have made some birdie putts.

Truth.  There is only so much the caddie can do.  Those ones on 13 and 18 still haunt me.  What other shitty courses did you play this weekend?

Well, since you asked, there is this less recognized Ross course near my house in St. Davids. 

I think there needs to be a GCA gathering at St. Davids.  A Ross layout with a Forse restoration!

Mark

Heard the soup is good there.  I'm in!

[Matt_Ward]

Sev:

Played a number of the ones you mentioned --

only Estancia would move to the upper tier I mentioned previously.

Possibly WR / Upper in AZ too.

Ditto for Pine Barrens / World Woods.

Butler National is a joint George and Tom Fazio project.

[JNC Lyon]

No doubt that Galloway is one Fazio's better courses. I prefer the nearby Hidden Creek. Different strokes for different folks.

Steve,

I have not played Hidden Creek, but it looks phenomenal.  How similar is it to Galloway?

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

You can't make broad assertions of anyone's work from a limited supply of courses. I don't doubt you or anyone else can have an opinion -- it's the definitive variety that wrangles me and others. How bout doing the homework -- before making broad assertions. Too many people want to jump into the debate but don't want to do the heavy lifting that comes with such statements.

One can surmise plenty through reading of articles and even seeing pictures and the like. The key ingredient comes from the personal hands-on sampling of courses. Short of that and you run the risk of being seen as a pontificator without the personalized legwork to support such broad and wide conclusions.

Let me point out for you and others -- when Doak did CG it resonates because he took the time and effort to go to the places he mentions. He didn't rely upon others or upon third hand accounts. I would urge you to do likewise -- you're smart enough but don't make the leap before the personal homework is done.

Make no mistake about it -- I didn't give TF a pass on his failed attempts at the upgrade efforts made with a variety of classic courses -- Oak Hill among them - ditto for Inverness and others.

But with that said -- your categorization of his original work needs to do a good bt more on the personal side of things. I've suggested fromt he 75+ of his layouts I have played -- his batting average isn't as high as it should be but when the focus and effort has been there the man has a number of layouts that would easily make any top 100 listing.

Yoiur last sentence to me indicates a desire to keep an open mind and eye to his other work. That's a refreshing start ...

Matt, you can shred me all you want for having a "personal homework side" that is really light.  I'm not claiming to be an expert on Fazio's complete body of work, but I have a solid concept of his philosophy, and it's not completely to my liking.  Even so, I'll make an effort to see his best layouts in the future.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

NJ courses superior to Galloway
Bayonne
Alpine
Baltustral both
Canoe Brook both
Essex Fells
Essex County
Hackensack
Arcola
Mountain Ridge
Somerset Hills
Hawk Point
Montclair
Hollywood
Hidden Creek
Pine Barrens
Forsgate
Deal
Atlantic City CC
Seaview
And there are a few more that I have missed in addition to what Matt cited as superior

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

I think anyone can have an opinion, and I don't think I claimed that my opinion on his original work is definitive.  I'm not a Fazio expert, and I'm not writing the Confidential Guide 2 either.  I understand that I can't judge a course accurately until I've played it.  That's why I don't post reviews of Shadow Creek or World Woods on here.  I'm not going to write about their architectural merits until I've played them.  

Furthermore, I agree, for the thousandth time, that I will benefit in my analysis of Fazio from playing more of his courses (though don't expect me to pay $250 to play Atunyote any time soon).  

However, to borrow a phrase from Ron Whitten, I do know that he manufactured Shadow Creek out of whole cloth and that he moves a lot of dirt at many of his projects.  I have an idea of the work Fazio does.  I can form some informed opinions about his work by reading and observing as well as playing.  At this point, I can make better "broad" conclusions than "specific" conclusions about his work.

Once again, I'll try to keep an open mind on Fazio's work.  Galloway already changed my opinion of him, big time.  More experience will likely change my impression of Fazio and his architecture.

[Michael Goldstein]

Sev - gutted I missed you at Paraparaumu but I've just been talking with John about your game there - sounds like you had a good day.  Small world that I now see your name on here.  That is golf...

I played GN in high summer last year when it was playing firm (and the bugs were out - sorry to mention it Sev!).  I'll put some photos up when I work out how to do this.

JC we played it in the same wind as you did so can relate to your comments on how the first two par threes played.

2 is a great short par three - the photos don't do justice to the roll offs on the left of the green and the pitch from back to front.  Early in the round to have your short game put under this type of pressure is great.  I heard there was a leading amateur tournament here in '10 and the guys got hammered by #2.

As for TF,  I know very little about his work but I (think) have played four of his courses (Waterville, Black Diamond, Caves Valley & GN) and judging by his work there some comments read above may be unreasonably harsh. And am I right in saying he leads any renovations at Augusta?




 

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