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Kyle Harris

Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2011, 02:23:17 PM »
Why?

There are alot more bad players than good.

That means a lot more bad players are looking to good players as an example.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2011, 02:25:37 PM »
Examples of instant gratification?

JNC Lyon

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Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2011, 02:26:14 PM »
Why?

There are alot more bad players than good.

That means a lot more bad players are looking to good players as an example.

My thoughts exactly.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2011, 02:26:40 PM »
Examples of expecting instant gratification?

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2011, 02:27:03 PM »
Jim Sullivan writes:
Why?

There are alot more bad players than good.


It's not all that tough to figure out. Many more bad players want to become good players than visa versa. So you are going to get many more bad players imitating good players rather than good players imitating bad players.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Excessive golfing dwarfs the intellect. Nor is this to be wondered at when we consider that the more fatuously vacant the mind is, the better for play. It has been observed that absolute idiots play the steadiest.
  --Sir Walter Simpson  (The Art of Golf)

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2011, 02:27:21 PM »
There is this feeling amongst the beter players that a golf course should be 'fair'. There are a variety of dislikes amongst the pro's but they generally involve the bounce. Lots do not like TOC, and for a sub 10 handicapper it can be anoying to hit a good 7 iron and it stop within 10 feet at one hole and then run 80 feet away at the next, at the 3 you hit an upslope and 4 a downslope, but a yard or so shorter or longer could yield opposite results. The arguement I suppose is it tests your metal.
Plenty of Americans have never crossed the water, or refuse to come back over.
Most linksy courses have a way round, but they involve fiddly shots, its not to everyones liking.
If we are going to build new courses that mirror the old fashioned links, you will get these same comments, perhaps it is even a back handed compliment.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2011, 02:29:30 PM »
Ben,
I donít disagree that it could be a problem for you playing behind a 30 handicap player who insists on putting out every stroke, who bears down on each shot as if it might be his last on earth. However, what strikes me is the number of ďcrisisĒ moments in golf described here and on many other threads. It seems everything is a reason for the decline of golf. If it is not keeping score, itís riding a cart, it's using a rangefinder, itís taking a practice swing, itís slow conditions, itís Rees Jones, itís 14 clubs, itís the PGA Tour, itís spitting on greens, itís architects, itís overshaping, itís taking another practice swing. Everything is a crisis.

A beginning player reading this website would do well to avoid it or they may be too discouraged to continue playing. He may think well gee I am tired sometimes and like to take a cart, that Rees Jones course was kind of fun, I like knowing my score, it helps me to take a practice swing, but Iím beginning to think Iím the problem according to all these experts on golf who post here.

For many of us golf is good 99.9% of the time, itís never been so good, and that is certainly is not because of a bunch of people hanging around a website all day! So what this expert golfer does not like Old Mac. So what he decries the lack of shot making required. Do you like Old Mac? Yes? Well then go play it and have fun!

It is amazing the amount of disrespect shown to the game on this website. People on here live in a perpetual state of crisis. It is exhausting and psychologically demeaning.


Kelly,

Yeah I hear you.  Golf needs more optimism right now.  I agree.

My argument to you seems psychologically demeaning.  Okay.  You're in the business--which is more than I can say for 98% of the pontificates like me on this site--so I respect what you say.  I do get preachy about my opinion of sustainability and supply and demand.  I get it.  

However, I feel like your post above is intellectually demeaning.  In my opinion, it's not just the economy's fault.  To pretend like there aren't some crises in golf right now is to be dishonest about the state of things.  It's not all doom and gloom, but some things need to happen for golf to be as strong as it once was.  Notice I didn't--and hardly ever--write about many of the things you mentioned.  I have always focused on slow play and unrealistic maintenance expectations, and today I spun those two tenets into this argument and spoke about medal play.  It's kind of my thing right now to blame everything including the war in Iraq on slow play and maintenance practices being out of whack.  

If you feel that we shouldn't--among the true geeks, the members of this site--discuss things that are contributing to the decline of the game, then where else can we talk about it?  I am all for optimism, as long as we can educate folks and be honest about why we're optimistic.  There shouldn't be any marketing going on here.  Just discussion.  


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2011, 02:38:54 PM »
Dan - this is our disagreement...


I wrote:

do we agree that the instant gratification mindset appears at all levels?


You responded:

Yep, but the problem starts at the top.




I think "the problem starting at the top" is a throw away, gratuitous comment that cannot be defended. How exactly does an average player imitate a good player expecting instant gratification?

I agree there are good players that think a course should reward every reasonable shot they hit. I disagree that an 18 handicapper that hits a reasonable shot, for them, feels it should be rewarded BECAUSE the good player felt their shot should be rewarded. I think it's simply because the game is very hard and they want a break.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2011, 02:43:12 PM »
A good shot: One that is rewarded.
A rewarded shot: One that is good.

John,

You friend is talking logical nonsense. He might as well say tautologies don't exist.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2011, 02:49:42 PM »

I agree there are good players that think a course should reward every reasonable shot they hit. I disagree that an 18 handicapper that hits a reasonable shot, for them, feels it should be rewarded BECAUSE the good player felt their shot should be rewarded. I think it's simply because the game is very hard and they want a break.


I THINK I agree,if I'm understanding correctly.

Would you be saying that the bad player should have less of a reasonable expectation of a good outcome than a good player--but thinks that "luck" should be equally distributed?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2011, 02:59:24 PM »
I might be...hadn't thought of it in the context of luck, but it's undeniable that the closer a shot is to being good, the more valuable/influential a stroke of luck can be...and it's equally undeniable that a scratch will have more shots closer to good than an 18.

 

Dan King

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Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2011, 03:02:29 PM »
Jim Sullivan writes:
I think "the problem starting at the top" is a throw away, gratuitous comment that cannot be defended.

You were the one that brought up instant gratification. I assumed -- perhaps wrongly -- that you were using it as a shorthand for what we were talking about: golf as a physical game, ignoring the mental aspects of the game.

I agree there are good players that think a course should reward every reasonable shot they hit. I disagree that an 18 handicapper that hits a reasonable shot, for them, feels it should be rewarded BECAUSE the good player felt their shot should be rewarded. I think it's simply because the game is very hard and they want a break.

The 18 handicapper doesn't know how to become a better golfer, therefore they imitate everything they see better golfers do. Regardless if it is wearing a Titliest hat, spitting on the course, lining up a putt from every possible angle, having exact yardage, carrying stupid bags, waiting until it is their turn to hit before doing anything, etc... They will try it all.

The PGA setup courses that require minimal thought because it is more important to keep the players happy rather than create a real test of golf. The best players play essentially the exact same course every week with the hot putter winning most weeks.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Tom Watson's a great golfer, but that's all. Larry Nelson, a nice guy but so absolutely colorless you'd think he'd at least wear some bright clothes. Lon Hinkle, forget it. Ben Crenshaw's Texas drawl is his charisma. Bill Rodgers, nothing. Hale Irwin ought to be a banker. Most of these guys don't even drink. Only bullfighting and the waterhole are left as vestigal evidence of what bloody savages men used to be.
 --Tommy Bolt, 1980
 

Kyle Harris

Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2011, 03:05:09 PM »
Ben:

From very early on, anyone I know that tries the game with me gets to hear about how overcoming all the little variables is an aspect and appeal of the game and that the ultimate challenge of the game is to get the ball into the hole in the fewest amount of strokes possible. I try to be upbeat about tough breaks, bad lies, and non-manicured conditioning as developing a positive attitude about these things I think is key to developing the mind of a golfer.

Anthony Gray

Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2011, 03:07:21 PM »

 links courses such as Old Mac put a premium on shot making because there are more options to make a shot.Many different ways to work the ball compared to an inland course.

  Anthony


Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2011, 03:12:01 PM »

 links courses such as Old Mac put a premium on shot making because there are more options to make a shot.Many different ways to work the ball compared to an inland course.

  Anthony


Anthony that does not make sense to me.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2011, 03:14:22 PM »
 It's kind of my thing right now to blame everything including the war in Iraq on slow play and maintenance practices being out of whack.  
 we can educate folks and be honest about why we're optimistic.    

Ben,

I wish you well in your mission.

Dishonestly yours!,

Kelly

Was there supposed to be an emoticon there?  If so, which one, and how many? 

Kyle,

Nice work. 

Anthony Gray

Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2011, 03:16:18 PM »

 links courses such as Old Mac put a premium on shot making because there are more options to make a shot.Many different ways to work the ball compared to an inland course.

  Anthony


Anthony that does not make sense to me.

  Liks courses play fast and firm usually.So you can take high or take it low ect.More than one way to play the shots thus putting a premium on shot making.

  Anthony


JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2011, 03:16:27 PM »
.

The PGA setup courses that require minimal thought because it is more important to keep the players happy rather than create a real test of golf. The best players play essentially the exact same course every week with the hot putter winning most weeks.


  

I don't think many people would play to their handicaps on courses set up for the PGA Tour--even those really strategic thinking 15 handicaps.The presumption that Tour players don't think themselves around a golf course is just wrong.

Why the bias against against guys who are really good at playing golf?They're not all bad people.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2011, 03:23:52 PM »
Dan,

Every 18 handicapper on the planet knows what it would take to get better...it hits them in the face each time they play.

In addition, I'll guarantee you that a course prepared for a PGA Tour event will demand more thought than that same course set up by any of us on this board.  

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2011, 03:25:58 PM »


In addition, I'll guarantee you that a course prepared for a PGA Tour event will demand more thought than that same course set up by any of us on this board.
 

Great minds...

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2011, 03:27:51 PM »

 links courses such as Old Mac put a premium on shot making because there are more options to make a shot.Many different ways to work the ball compared to an inland course.

  Anthony


Anthony that does not make sense to me.

  Liks courses play fast and firm usually.So you can take high or take it low ect.More than one way to play the shots thus putting a premium on shot making.

  Anthony


Anthony I still dont know if premium is the right word, just because of the options. Thinking outside the square if you take a punchbowl green, does that reward good shotmaking because here are options? No. In all honesty a punchbowl green does not reward a good shot at all it is the total opposite, it rewards slighty errant one. I think kick backs, back stops are great for the higher handicapper, not sure the scratchman gets the same juice though.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2011, 03:28:25 PM »
It's really not a stroke play/match play issue. This same guy would likely be just as frustrated if he was in a match and felt like he was hitting great shots at the flag all day long but never had good opportunities for birdie. Hell, he might have been even more frustrated because he would be, potentially, losing holes to some guy not hitting it right at the flag every time.

This player's issue is he thinks that hitting it straight at the hole is always the ideal line. Of course it's not, not even on many holes with a lot less quirk than seems to exist (I've only seen photos tours) at OM. OM is the style of course that rewards study and multiple plays for a player to discover the best places to miss a shot, and when it is OK or not OK to go right at the pin. That attitude isn't born out of a stroke play mindset, just one that doesn't appreciate quirk or any kind of challenge that isn't inherently straightforward.

Ultimately, not every "good shot" will be rewarded. Consider the two player's experiences at 14 on Pebble Beach a few Sundays ago. Mickelson and Points both hit approach shots that just cleared the bunker in front and hit in the rough in front of the putting surface. Points' ball took a soft hop and rolled into the hole for an eagle. Phil's ball hit hard and kicked all the way down the slop on the left leading to a bogey. Both players were trying to hit the same kind of shot--one that landed as close to the front of that green, maybe even in the rough over the bunker, as possible. Both hit that shot. The two couldn't have landed more than a couple yards apart. But would we say that the 14th at pebble doesn't reward good shots? of course not. Quirk is a part of the game of golf.

With that said, any player who tried to land their ball right next to the flag on the 14th at Pebble that day would not have been able to hold the green. The player in question might find that unfair, but only if he's playing completely ignorant of the hole as it exists. It sounds like that may have been the case for his round at OM.

Anthony Gray

Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2011, 03:31:47 PM »

 links courses such as Old Mac put a premium on shot making because there are more options to make a shot.Many different ways to work the ball compared to an inland course.

  Anthony


Anthony that does not make sense to me.

  Liks courses play fast and firm usually.So you can take high or take it low ect.More than one way to play the shots thus putting a premium on shot making.

  Anthony


Anthony I still dont know if premium is the right word, just because of the options. Thinking outside the square if you take a punchbowl green, does that reward good shotmaking because here are options? No. In all honesty a punchbowl green does not reward a good shot at all it is the total opposite, it rewards slighty errant one. I think kick backs, back stops are great for the higher handicapper, not sure the scratchman gets the same juice though.

  Adrian,

 I agree with the punch bowl and love punch bowls because of my high handy cap.Because shot selection on links courses is more varied in puts a prium on pulling off the shot you selected.When you missed the direct shot you say you should have bumped it in.

  Anthony


Greg Tallman

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Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2011, 03:50:17 PM »
I don't have a problem with someone keeping score.  I don't think anyone is saying that here.  My argument is that it has become too much of the focus.  I think the singular focus of par is a bad way to gauge the game for 95% of the golfing population.  For the 5% that are legitimate sub-5 handicap golfers, that can play well in tournaments, or post a number at their member-guest, I'm fine with it.  

The problem that develops when stroke count is such an integral part of the game, is that those that have no business worrying about score, start worrying about their score.  It leads to market overload of any number of products promised to lower your score, slow play, over-expectation in regards to conditioning, etc.   I believe that for a majority of the golfing population, focus on medal scoring muddies the water.  

What this has to do with John's friend is long connection, but I'll try to make it.  My overlying problem with his assessment of Old Mac is, "who gives a flip?"  I feel that so many good to great players look down on a course that allows poorer players to have fun and score decent for no good reason.  Is he just mad that he can't self gratify himself for his abilities against other golfers?  Where is it written that great architecture stratifies the abilities of golfers?  I thought the US Open was made to identify the best player, not a resort course in Oregon.  


Great quote on "scoring"... former tour pro Harry Toscano to a buddy of mine who can hit virtually any shot imagnable though cannot score at all.

Buddy is playing his typical round, hitting it well but scoring poorly and heads to the par 5, 14th a few over par. Perfect drive provides a chance to get to a relatively unreachable par 5 in 2... he lays up. Harry looks at him in disgust and says... "What the ?%&$ are you worried about, breaking 80?"

One of many great on course comments from Harry.

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Course Doesn't Reward Good Shotmaking"
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2011, 04:38:29 PM »
John,
Is this something as simple as links golf and playing the ground game?  Example: the first hole (or second)at BALLYNEAL, if you fly the ball to the green --- you will wind up over the green especially with a tailwind.  A shot maker will then choose not to land on the green.

Brad

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