[Mark Saltzman]

Jason,

I'm curious what you thought of #8 on Fazio Foothills (downhill dogleg left-to-right par 5).  It's been a few years since I played there but I remember a very blind and confusing second shot if you are on the right side of the fairway (or rough).  Did this hole stand out to you at all?

Mark

[Bill_McBride]

Jason,

I'm curious what you thought of #8 on Fazio Foothills (downhill dogleg left-to-right par 5).  It's been a few years since I played there but I remember a very blind and confusing second shot if you are on the right side of the fairway (or rough).  Did this hole stand out to you at all?

Mark

Mark, let me offer one opinion based on several plays:  it's not a good hole, awkward, but if you keep your wits about you and don't get greedy, you can make a par and move on to the scenic short par 3 that follows.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

I'm curious what you thought of #8 on Fazio Foothills (downhill dogleg left-to-right par 5).  It's been a few years since I played there but I remember a very blind and confusing second shot if you are on the right side of the fairway (or rough).  Did this hole stand out to you at all?

Mark

Mark:

I cannot remember the hole very well, even after checking the yardage book and the pictures on Bing.  I hit a good tee shot down the left side and remember deciding that I did not have the shot to hit the green in two. After that, I do not remember a thing.

The par five that stood out to me as one I could not decide whether I liked it or not was the 18th on the Fazio Canyons course.  The idea of the design is to pressure a layup by forcing one to hit over bunkers to a petty narrow landing area.  If one does not take on that risk, the wedge into the green is over a tree that is almost impossible to carry and get close to a front pin.  That hole may be brilliant or stupid but I would need to play it ten times to decide.

[Tom Yost]

...  I was too busy enjoying good company, trying to digest giant ribs ...

Ya eat brisket in Texas, son!

As for the time machine, I don't think you need to go back to 1991 to hear interesting comments from golfers facing the unusual. Curious about the views of the other members of your long time foursome on how they ranked the four?

 

[Jason Topp]

...  I was too busy enjoying good company, trying to digest giant ribs ...

Ya eat brisket in Texas, son!

As for the time machine, I don't think you need to go back to 1991 to hear interesting comments from golfers facing the unusual. Curious about the views of the other members of your long time foursome on how they ranked the four?

 

I will ask them.  They largely make fun of me for my interest in architecture so they would definitely be more representative of the general golf population.

[Sam Morrow]

Cliffside is a fun course, it presents many more options and is more fun when playing with average players. Both Fazio courses are enjoyable but pretty tough. Years ago I played Foothill with my Dad, a 30 handicapper, he said he enjoyed the course for the views but got beat up by it. 8 Is a goofy hole to me, you feel like you are playing in a rainforest. Lakeside is solid but if I am over that way I'll go play Austin Golf Club. That's just me.

[Jason Topp]

Lakeside is solid but if I am over that way I'll go play Austin Golf Club. That's just me.

McBride made the same suggestion.  Given our group would be reverting to our younger selves, I thought it best not to sully a private club with our presence.

[Sam Morrow]

Lakeside is solid but if I am over that way I'll go play Austin Golf Club. That's just me.

McBride made the same suggestion.  Given our group would be reverting to our younger selves, I thought it best not to sully a private club with our presence.

McBride is a smart man, I'm a younger, more in your face version of him.

[Jason Topp]

In response to Tom's question above, I asked my playing partners how they ranked the courses and why.  One guy never responded.  The other two responses don't really answer the question.  I don't believe they think about courses in terms of rankings.  A nice reminder that the general golf public sees the game differently than most of us do:

From Todd:

Any analysis from me beyond "Fazio Canyons was very pretty" and "the Crenshaw course had huge fairways and very tough greens" would be useless to your knowledgeable discussion group.  But I do note that the "good company" reference hurts your credibility overall. 


From Dan:

I'm certainly no authority on golf courses so I don't think my opinion is worth much, but here goes. . . I agree with Todd that the Fazio courses were more striking, although the Palmer course had it's share of visually impressive holes.  I was lucky enough to be hitting the ball well off the tee, so I didn't feel like the Fazio courses were  excessively narrow.  I think some of the longer holes played considerably shorter because of the hills and the roll you could get.  With a few more rounds you could get a better sense of where to place your shot to get a longer roll and avoid trouble. 

    On the other hand, I thought that the Fazio greens were harder to read, both in terms of speed and direction (this is probably just because my short game stinks).  However, I thought the Crenshaw greens were easier to play-- they seemed faster but more consistent and easier to read.

      In my opinion The Foothills was the prettiest course,  Palmer had a few spectacular views, but Crenshaw was probably the most fun to play -- given my ability.

    Overall, I thought all the courses were in good shape-- especially since we were out of season.  I don't remember having a bad lie in the fairway or any ground under repair. There were few divots and the greens seemed to hold good shots.  Moreover, I don't recall any throw away or gimmicky holes on any of the courses. Now I am losing perspective -- as I return to the snow, cold and piles of work -- the courses seem like Augusta and Pebble Beach.

[Jason Topp]

On Friday evening, I looked around the house and realized that the kids had plans all weekend, my wife wanted to watch movies on the Lifetime Channel and Jeff Shelman posted an interest in driving to Des Moines to play golf on Saturday.  Thus - at about 8pm, Jeff and I made plans to meet at 7:30am and drive the 3-1/2 hours to sneak in an early round of mud golf. 

It is very pleasurable to see the snow gradually melt away as one drives South.  Our destination was Waveland golf course, located about 6 blocks from where I grew up and the venue for the Des Moines City Amatuer. 

Waveland has been open since mid-February this year but the weather has not warmed up to the point of allowing grass to grow.  Thus, conditions were more than a bit rough.  Nonetheless, the course is holds many fond memories for me and a colorful history as a spot for hustlers (at least when I was a kid).  One of the participants was "featured" in this 1965 Sports Illustrated article entitled "The Case of the Too Hot Golfer:" 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077921/index.htm

(I have linked this before)

There was no hustling to be done between Jeff and I.  We played for fun and neither of us would have won a nickel from anyone with a pulse.  Jeff took a few pictures of the course which I hope he will add to this thread.

It felt great to play hookey for a day from a still lingering winter in Minnesota. 

[Jason Topp]

My wife and kids eagerly proposed a spring break trip to the Galapagos Islands.  The thought of travelling 1/4 of the way around the world and spending a fortune to look at tortoise did not strike me as the best opportunity to sneak in golf.  I ruminated about this for a few days and came up with the brilliant response - McKinley (my son) will be in the middle of tennis tryouts and needs to hone his tennis game!

The ploy worked brilliantly.  Instead we travelled 1/4 of the way around the world and spent a fortune to visit Kapalua.   While I cannot recommend this approach from a value perspective, I can recommend it as a pretty easy way to sneak a few rounds into a family vacation while minimizing familial repercussions.   I am still in the doghouse for our family trip to Australia five years ago.  My wife Claire showed no interest in setting the itinerary and left it to me.  Of course, our itinerary consisted of Tasmania, Melbourne and Sydney.  About half way through the trip Claire started to question why we were not seeing the great barrier reef.  

I think I am in better marital shape this time around.

I think the pictures are more interesting than my commentary, although I will say this about the Plantation Course -  Anyone who thinks width and greens that allow ground game approaches automatically results in a course that is playable for all should spend a little time listening to players after their round at the Plantation Course.  They enjoy the scenery, but their games and ball supplies have been beaten to a pulp.  

Here are a few views:

1 Tee



1 Green



2 Green from left - wind and slope take ball towards the ocean



This is the view most average golfers get of the course.  I have become convinced it is not possible to build a course wide enough to accommodate the wild player:



7 Green?



11 Green - last par three on the course



Grudge match on 18 Tee.  My next trip is to Weight Watchers.




Preparing to hit a fat shot short and right on 18:



My son in one of the few spots where he did not hit it in the junk.  McKinley plays tennis, not golf.  Consequently he can hit the ball a mile.  He drove it to upslope in front of the green on 3 - 250 yards into the wind uphill.  On 7 the cart indicated he hit it 310 off the tee downwind and downhill.



I am no Aidan.  This picture did not work at all:



Kaanapali is no Plantation course.  The best angle into the green is to the left of this bunker, which is to the left of the fairway an in play on an adjoining hole.  

[Jason Topp]

Anyone visiting Hawaii should purchase the book "Maui Revealed."  The Guidebook is produced by a local couple and provide frank and easy to read commentary on the tourist attractions.  The golf course reviews are very informative.  They are written from a non-GCA perspective and I disagree with some of his conclusions but his description of Kaanapali is spot on -  "the primary advantage of this course is its location. [disclaimer - quote is from memory]"

As you can guess from my last post, my view of the Kaanapali course is less than stellar.  I would consider the course a perfectly fine municipal course - wide open, good condition, some interesting greens, an extremely awkward routing that appears to have been jumbled around a bit for the purpose of accomodating some additional housing.  The range is terrible - mats and squishy range balls.

The course would be perfectly acceptable at $30 or $50 dollars, but at over $200 I would suggest two twilight rounds at the Plantation Course ($138 each) is much better value for your money. 

On a positive note - I did win my match 6 & 5 and thereby earned breakfast after our early morning round.  My playing companion hit his golf ball supply into the water on 18 attempting a 30 yard hook around a palm tree over water to a cape type green. His final attempt appeared to hit dry land although by that point he could not verify whether or not the ball was his because he had hit so many.

[Bill_McBride]

Jason Topp, rockin' the Trues at Kapalua!   

[Jason Topp]

Jason Topp, rockin' the Trues at Kapalua!   

They look a bit like clown shoes but they really are comfortable on my toes which tend to hurt in normal shoes.

[Dan Kelly]

This is the view most average golfers get of the course.  I have become convinced it is not possible to build a course wide enough to accommodate the wild player:



Grudge match on 18 Tee.  My next trip is to Weight Watchers.

Two great comments about width -- though, as one who knows, I'd say: Situps are cheaper!

[Bill_McBride]

Jason Topp, rockin' the Trues at Kapalua!   

They look a bit like clown shoes but they really are comfortable on my toes which tend to hurt in normal shoes.

Me too.  The blister problems that started in Dornoch in June 2008 are history.  I have a pair of the white clown shoes and a pair of the black/white clown saddle shoes and alternate them.  No more Mr. Blister!

[Jason Topp]

Two great comments about width -- though, as one who knows, I'd say: Situps are cheaper!

Lifetime member so it is free (as long as I am within a specified weight range which to my shock I was). 

Golf is the best weight loss tool in my arsenal.  Walking and carrying adds about 50% to the amount one can eat in a day.  Cartball - not so helpful.

In Hawaii, I was eating a lot - apparently enough to more than offset 2 hours of tennis a day, chasing teenage kids to the point of exhaustion and endless walks to the car because I was too cheap to spend $17 a day to wait for some guy to get it for me.

[Tom Yost]

Anyone visiting Hawaii should purchase the book "Maui Revealed."  ...

Thumbs up!   A lot of the content is available on line.  Really cool is an interactive map where pretty much every resort & condo complex is listed and you can get a description and see an aerial view of each property.

I found the restaurant reviews to be fairly spot on.
 

...Kaanapali ... The course would be perfectly acceptable at $30 or $50 dollars, but at over $200 I would suggest two twilight rounds at the Plantation Course ($138 each) is much better value for your money. 

The way I reconciled it - if I was going to pay $200, what's another $95?   

[Jason Topp]

Anyone visiting Hawaii should purchase the book "Maui Revealed."  ...

Thumbs up!   A lot of the content is available on line.  Really cool is an interactive map where pretty much every resort & condo complex is listed and you can get a description and see an aerial view of each property.

I found the restaurant reviews to be fairly spot on.

I agree and I thought the golf course reviews were good, just not necessarily my perspective.  He advises against the Plantation Course because of how badly it beats up the average golfer.  He is correct about the beating up part and the exposure to the wind.

I should add that they have books for all the major Islands and I have found their suggestions to be quite good for both the Big Island and Kaui'i.  We did motorized hang gliding this time because the author is an enthusiast and I strongly recommend that option over a helicopter tour.  Just don't leave late and be forced to drive as quickly as possible on the road to Hana. 

[Dan Kelly]

... motorized hang gliding ... 

My belly -- larger than yours, as you know -- is doing loop-de-loops at those words.

Not that I wouldn't do it, if someone could calm me down....

Tell us about it (if you'd care to).

[Jason Topp]

I have not updated this thread in awhile.  In part it is  because I have not travelled for golf much but also it is because I have a hard time focusing on photography while playing golf.  

My focus has been on playing at home.  One fun event a friend organized was to get two guys from four clubs in Minneapolis - Oak Ridge, Spring Hill, Minikahda and Woodhill and we are rotating courses approximately every other week and playing very informal competitions.  Spring Hill is the one course remaining on the rotation.  

I had not played Minikahda since its restoration several years ago and the course has been the hilight of the summer so far.  The course has improved dramatically with the reduction in trees and the wild appearance of long fescue around bunkers.  While there I met Jeff Johnson, their superintendant who is undertaking a natural transformation in an effort to reduce poa annua.  The greens at the course are in fantastic shape which is a rarity in the Twin Cities this year.  Jeff writes a terrific blog for his members which you can see here.  http://minikahdagrounds.blogspot.com/

I also play a ton of evening golf at Oak Ridge.  Nothing is more pleasurable than briskly walking a wonderful course with good friends in 3 hours with the shadows growing long.  This photo is from behind our 15th green while racing sunset to finish the round:




I've also played a fair amount at Bunker Hills which for me is the ideal for Municipal golf.  The design of the course is very pedestrian but the course sits on terrific sandy soil.  The course also has a terrific Men's club that conducts formal competitions and fills the tee sheet weekend mornings when no formal competition takes place.  http://bhmc.org/home.asp

One of my favorite holes is the 5th on the North Nine, which is a par four of 425 yards or so that just feels natural:

This picture (stolen from their website) is from the front tee.  From the tees we play the line is actually over the corner of the dogleg:



Here is the green.  The green features a big ridge seperating the left and right halves of the green that make it critical to get a long approach on the correct portion of the green.



I have also been out to Windsong Farm a few times.  I'm not the biggest fan of the golf course but the club is close to my ideal - small clubhouse, members that walk and are good players.  I would probably be in the 3rd or 4th flight of their club championship.  Here is a link to Bill Satterfield's review of the course.  http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/windsongfarm.php

Fun golf is ahead:

John Mayhugh is visiting for our member guest and we will be playing some of the best in Minnesota including an outing with a number of Minnesota GCA people at Northland.

In August, I make my annual pilgrimage to the Lake Okoboji region in Iowa for the Northwest Amateur at Spencer Country Club.  http://www.nwamspencer.com/

In the fall, I have trips to Mississippi, St. George, UT and to Virginia for the Dixie Cup.  Life is rough!

[Dan Kelly]

Very well put: " Nothing is more pleasurable than briskly walking a wonderful course with good friends in 3 hours with the shadows growing long."

You're a lucky man.

[Jason Topp]

Remember these guys?



Apparently the parole officer gave them a break and allowed them to travel, although I suspect foul play because an Irish guy from Boston named Don accompanied them as well as 5 others on a visit to Northern Minnesota.  Originally, Giant's Ridge and Northland was their destination, but thanks to the Minnesota government shutdown, the course was closed.  Instead they returned to Brainerd for a fiercely contested battle for a pink jacket.

As it happened, I needed to pick my daughter up from camp and joined them for two rounds at Deacon's Lodge.  Upon waking up, I jumped in my car and waited for others to hop in for a ride to the clubhouse.  I looked up and saw this:



Apparently there was still some bitterness over my write up of the Bradenton round back in March.

Deacon's is a memorable course on fantastic terrain.  It may be a bit severe for many resort visitors and was a bit soft this weekend, presumably for resort play.  Nonetheless, I love its wild and woolly look shown in these pictures:

1st Tee



2nd hole - site of a memorable triple bogey by Ben on his way to a 75:



Third green - with some quality shots from the group behind us.  



Ben approaching on 8 - a short par four with a split fairway:



Ben's friend John on his way to a net 67



It looks like Dave can play from this shot:



I am guessing this is the par 3 12th:

[Mark Johnson]

Glad u had a good time.  Played deacons lodge earlier this week and it was in horrible shape.  Standing water in the fairways and they were watering.   Some very interesting holes but couldn't get by the horrible conditions for what was one ne of minnesota's best

[Jason Topp]

Glad u had a good time.  Played deacons lodge earlier this week and it was in horrible shape.  Standing water in the fairways and they were watering.   Some very interesting holes but couldn't get by the horrible conditions for what was one ne of minnesota's best

Mark:

It has dried out considerably since then.  Course was in great shape other than the remnants of winter kill in a couple of fairways.

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