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Ian Andrew

Re: 10 Things I Don’t Like in Design – Ian Andrew’s List
« Reply #100 on: February 02, 2011, 09:03:53 AM »
Mike,

It's a little long, but here's the whole disussion.


From Ron Whitten’s review of Chambers Bay explains the thought behind them:

“There is hardly a flat spot on the premises, and that includes the tee boxes. In what may be the first truly original design idea of the 21st century, Charlton convinced his colleagues to abandon traditional tee pads in favor of long, skinny, free-flowing ribbons of teeing space. Many are not much wider than walking paths; many are recessed rather than elevated; most are gently contoured with a variety of flats spots just the size of throw rugs. The idea is to pick the lie that might best help shape a shot off the tee: sidehill lies if you wish to fade or draw the ball, a slightly uphill lie if you need help getting airborne, a downhill lie if you want to keep it under the wind, or a flat lie. It's too early to know whether USGA officials will accept those unorthodox teeing areas for the U.S. Open. Jones hopes they will.”

"We'll probably address that after the [2010] U.S. Amateur," he says. "But it's not like there are no flat spots out there. We have dozens of 'batter's boxes' within the undulations. I would hope they'd position the markers far apart and let golfers chose their particular lies. Our goal was to get into the players' minds, even on the tee, and to put some integrity back into tee shots. Don't let them just stick a peg in the ground and bomb it."



Why I think it’s a bad idea:

99% of people will choose a flat lie on all occasions. The 1% that will make use of the slopes on tees are the very elite that should never have anything done to make the game easier for them.

Ignoring that idea, let’s say that 50% of the tees are flat and 50% has undulation. Given the choice, as I said before, 99% of players will choose a flat lie. What we end up with is all the wear on the flat sections. If you think putting the tees only on the roll will solve this then go play a public course and watch what happens to any tee marker on an undulating section of tee. It gets moved!

So if we cut undulate our tees we will inevitable cut the useable area by half. So golfers will choose to go to 50% of the available tee every time and we will get massive wear in the flat areas.  So what we have is a poorly conceived idea that will lead to concentrated wear. I ask you to ask all your friends to see if anyone of them in competition would intentionally tee the ball up on an uneven section of a tee.

I found only one, Dick Zokol, and he was good enough to win on the PGA Tour tour and liked to work the ball.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 10 Things I Don’t Like in Design – Ian Andrew’s List
« Reply #101 on: February 02, 2011, 09:32:04 AM »
Thank you Ian
I agree -- intentionally building slope into tees to promote shaping is very inefficient.

I do not like tees that look like inverted elephant stands.

At Wolf Point we didn't build any tees - there are just some small flat spots to play from - usually on the edges of the greens with a few natural tees when found.

At Sebonack the tees were built like the greens blending into the surrounds.
The goal being to make the tees look more natural but there will be some slopes cut at tee height - thus tees "with" contour.
I remember you remarking very positively about those tees.
Have you changed your mind?

I haven't been to Chambers.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Ian Andrew

Re: 10 Things I Don’t Like in Design – Ian Andrew’s List
« Reply #102 on: February 02, 2011, 09:43:00 AM »
Sebonack’s tees are brilliantly incorporated into the surroundings. The tee area is still flat, but the lack of transition between greenside short grass and tee is quite wonderful. The changes in elevation are so minor that the tees blend in very easily to the surroundings.

The lines are longer and the elevation difference is often far greater at Chambers Bay. It concentrated wear in places.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 10 Things I Don’t Like in Design – Ian Andrew’s List
« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2011, 10:25:37 AM »
10 Things I don’t like in design


1 – Me not getting jobs.
2- Others getting jobs I wanted.
3-Small budgets
4- Crappy sites
5- Interfering owners (the bad kind, not the good kind)
6-Contractors who redesign my designs two minutes after I leave the site, just to prove they can
7- Members/Owners who redesign my designs two minutes after I leave the site, just to prove they can
8-Designing for Pros who will never show up
9-Marginally effective environmental restrictions
10-Critics who don’t understand my work, intentions, or points 1-7 (esp. points 3-9)
11- Having to stop at 10……
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Clayman

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Re: 10 Things I Don’t Like in Design – Ian Andrew’s List
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2011, 10:46:27 AM »

Why I think it’s a bad idea:

99% of people will choose a flat lie on all occasions. The 1% that will make use of the slopes on tees are the very elite that should never have anything done to make the game easier for them.



Ian, I must take a small issue with this justification. I don't consider myself elite. However, I do love to play shots. Given the opportunity to assist my own swings inadequacies on the tee shot, is a real treat. I agree with the 1% percent, I just believe that that doesn't imply the better player. Just the one's that know their game well enough to know how to utilize a slight slope on the teeing ground.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 10 Things I Don’t Like in Design – Ian Andrew’s List
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2011, 10:53:32 AM »
Ian,

I have "strategy" books by Tom Watson and Hale Irwin in my library.  One or both mention playing to a flat lie as the best strategy. 

Creating areas of flat lies as strategic design vs sloping lies is a great design tool.  On tees, I agree, not so much.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sandy Smith

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Re: 10 Things I Don’t Like in Design – Ian Andrew’s List
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2011, 04:01:49 PM »
Hi Ian

I would just like to report that Marine Drive GC has just undergone a major bunker restoration done by Jim Urbina. Jim's work has really made the course feel much more open , playable and fun to play.The project took all of last summer to do and we are now waiting for spring to change mowing lines and heights of cuts around greens.
I think if you returned to Marine you wil find a far different course than the one you saw before.
Hopefully I figure out how to post  pictures in the near future. Bob Jenkins - HELP!
Firm greens, firmer fairways.

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