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Paul_Turner

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Would this green get built today?
« on: January 21, 2011, 11:35:45 AM »


Not enough going on?

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2011, 11:43:58 AM »
Paul

  Not sure about that. It appears that the green runs away and to the right for the golfer facing the hole. Also looks like there are plenty of subtle undulations in the front and middle left.  I like it.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 11:47:17 AM »
It probably does in Ma and Pa type operations. 

The first thing I noticed is that the green used to extend way further left (in the photo) as I see a slight raised edge way over there.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Terry Lavin

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 11:54:21 AM »
It probably does in Ma and Pa type operations. 



Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ed Oden

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2011, 12:23:53 PM »
Yes...


Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 12:28:45 PM »
It probably does in Ma and Pa type operations. 

The first thing I noticed is that the green used to extend way further left (in the photo) as I see a slight raised edge way over there.

Well then that is what we need more ma & pas like this
I'd straighten the mow line and call it a day

I vote the raised edge you see is top dressing

cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Carl Rogers

Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 01:09:56 PM »
Should this a part of the 'Affordable Golf' thread?
Like some of you, I would not dismiss it for lack of overt eye candy.

Bill_Yates

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 01:29:43 PM »
Not enough going on?  This is precisely the type of green that makes Oakmont such a challenge - in fact "penal."  Playing a shot on that hole to a green running 10+ on the Stimpmeter with the subtle rolls that it looks like it has would be quite challenging - and FUN!
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Adam Clayman

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 01:40:55 PM »
Looks pretty much lay of the land.

I suspect the answer would change depending on the designer.

I doubt, Rees or jack would build it. But then again, Jack has been trying to change the way he builds things. Hasn't he?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mark McKeever

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 02:05:07 PM »
If the green falls away from the second shot, I think its a pretty neat complex!  Like others have said, it looks like there are some good subtle movements especially in the front.

Agree with Adam.  Some designers wouldnt create a greensite like this, but some others would.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 02:23:04 PM »
Yes...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but that looks like the Dormie. Great green, 40-50 yards long, falls off the back, slopes right to left...............
I hope it gets built today.

Philippe Binette

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 02:29:58 PM »
All the talk about breather holes... every once in a while, a simple breather green works too... one little contour and done. love it

Sean_A

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2011, 02:30:33 PM »


Not enough going on?



This is a bit of a trick question,  but lord I hope archies would have the good sense and taste to see the virtues of this green and not be afraid to build similar ones.  The berm short/right of the green (left in the photo) with its accompanying dip (which carrries around to the right of the green) between it and the putting ssurface go a long way to making this green a cracker and is a wonderful example of creating interest without using a bunker there.  

In any case, this is not a breather hole and requires solid shot making and soiund putting to earn a par.  In the summer, as the photo depicts, the green is VERY slick heading from the left of the photo to the right - toward some bunkers which are out of sight.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 02:33:24 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Dave Falkner

Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2011, 02:39:01 PM »
i love  greens like this not lots of "whoa look at that"  but subtle breaks which require one to look at the lay of the land to get an idea of what a put is gonna do

Tim Nugent

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2011, 02:56:42 PM »
I'd like to see this from the landing area.  I looks like there is a piece of bunker on the left of the green (cut off by the right edge of the photo).  I wouldn't be surprised to see more bunkering in the right approach (in front of the ridges we see).  Since the fairway looks to be on the downhill slope and this flat green runs off the back, the obstructions front/right require on to fly it in and stop it off a downhill lie to a right side pin placement.
I call these "fairway greens" because they look like they were mowed right out of the fairway.  Like #18 at Onwensia where I caddied as a kid. I don't know if I could handle a steady diet of them but find them refreshing when they pop up in the routing.
Coasting is a downhill process

Ed Oden

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2011, 03:02:12 PM »
Yes...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but that looks like the Dormie. Great green, 40-50 yards long, falls off the back, slopes right to left...............
I hope it gets built today.

Bruce, yes, that is the 8th green at Dormie.  It is a fantastic green inspite/because of its simplicity.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2011, 03:11:51 PM »
Mike Nuzzo,

I would agree the areas right in front of the camera are years of topdressing buildup, but the left as we look definitely looks like it was built up enough to flatten the green acceptably.  Just MHO.

Tim,

And if it falls away, is it a fairaway green?

I would also agree that the apparent front left bunker, a downhill fade lie and fallaway, and left to right green would all make it hard to hold, unless soaked to the gills!  I am surprised we don't see more divots in the lower left of the photo....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Nugent

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2011, 04:07:47 PM »
Jeff, that's why I'd like to see it from other perspectives, to see if it is flat or falling.  My guess is that the rear may have gotten some help to flatten it out some. The land just feels like it keeps sloping (and the little swale along the right side aludes to that).  But, even if the land has a slight fall-off, I would still consider it a FWG - heck, who hasn't seen downslopes in fairways?
But, I agree, this looks to be a hard green to hold and perhaps the reason we don't see more divots behind the green is because the grass is so spotty - suggesting hardpan?
Coasting is a downhill process

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2011, 04:22:10 PM »
I like this green. Yes I think many of the more thinking architects would build this. I like the way it defends itself. Front to back runners are not common in resorty stuff, its definetly something I try to do at least once in each design.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2011, 04:35:46 PM »
Adrian,

I do it once or twice per course, too.  Check out the 12th at the Quarry in Biwabik, MN.  It even has a quarry gash in front, albeit 20 yards in front so the carry and necessary play to the front can be accomodated.

Tim,

The other reason to see other perspectives is that for my money, doing a real simple or non existent backdrop would also be related to what is behind the green and in this case, photographer.  The dormie green also shown in this thread doesn't need a lot of help, but if there were a power plant behind this green, it may just well need some.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2011, 04:45:33 PM »
Whose Ma's and Pa's are building courses today?

I like it, but I like subtle or understated. Could someone please identify the green? Thanks.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Andrew Summerell

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2011, 04:46:28 PM »
Would we be talking about this green if the course was a totally green, highly manicured golf course?

Sean_A

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2011, 06:08:30 PM »
Here are three other looks at the hole.  The subtlety of this design is wonderful.  I still believe what makes it is the dip to the front running around the right of the green in combo with thegreen running front right to back left.  Most people would look at the bunkers and mistake them for the trouble spots, but the bail area to other side of the green is the real trouble spot. 







Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2011, 06:11:48 PM »
Sean,
Thanks for the extra photos and for pointing the deception. It considerably improves the initial view.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sean_A

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Re: Would this green get built today?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 06:27:28 PM »
Jim

You are welcome.  I just love this style of architecture - a style that gets into a golfer's head the better he knows the hole.  There is another quite unusual aspect of the hole; the drive runs to the right, but the approach runs left.  Colt(?) rewards the guy who can play his shots against the grain and the ones that are very accurate riding the slope. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

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