[Sean_A]

Here is a brief article about the proposed route of the new high speed train linking London with Brum, Manchester and Leeds.  After much wrangling, the second proposed route will still kill the course, but Litchfield and the Whittington village get a break.  This would be a sad loss for Colt fans.  Despite the club keeping Whittington Heath in a ridiculously narrow condition with strangling rough, the course is one of the more clever designs I have come across and should be one of those jewels that people speak of in hushed tones - its that good.   

http://www.thisislichfield.co.uk/news/New-HS2-route-better-city-golfers/article-3068387-detail/article.html

A tour of the course.
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.msg1726955.html#msg1726955

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

This one big subject.  

A train line through the course will"kill" it?  

Sadly can't preserve everything and thats a major need for the nation.


EDIT Apologies I haven't played it I was thinking of Luffenham Heath.  Still doesn't change my view of the politics and yes it's a shame.

[Sean_A]

Tony

Unfortunately, I think the line is going to run through the property at a bit of angle right thru the house and what looks to be the dead middle of the property.  At the very least hole #s 6,8,9 & 18 are toast and I suspect 2, 3, 7, 10 are in trouble.  I can't see where in the immediate area they can rebuild the course easily because of roads,  Whittington Barracks and mucky fields.

I don't know what the need is for the nation nor have I researched what the alternatives are to this proposal.  I can see in general the area is quite badly blighted by the M6 toll road and the M6 isn't far away - so in a way it makes sense to develop an already mucked up area.  In any case, I wasn't talking about that aspect, just that Whittington strikes me as quite an unusual course and a pity to lose.  Mind you, with the current regime in place Whittington is half lost already. 

Ciao

[James Boon]

Sean,

I will need to make an effort to get there before they wreck it then!

I only know of one other similar example. When the M1 Motorway was extending north (when was that, the 50s or 60s I think?), it cut Erewash Valley GC (just down the road from me) in half. The holes on one side of the motorway were modified to become a short par 3 course and practice area, while the other side (with some new land I suspect) had 18 holes cramped in. Not a bad course but very crowded, and the motorway noise is a bit off putting.

Cheers,

James

[Paul_Turner]

That would be a real shame...it's a cool course.  The course would be a gonna... farmland isn't much of a replacement for heath.

 I don't believe it has been changed much from Colt's design.  I know M Hawtree worked on it but I think it was mainly bunker work and perhaps one new green?

Perhaps they should fully restore the heath and get SSI designation!

England is a crowded country, it needs more open space, not less.

Sean 

Where's the new map?  I can only find the one where it just misses the course.

[Sean_A]

Paul

http://www.michael.fabricant.mp.co.uk/HS2_Middle_Map.pdf

Ciao

[James Boon]

Sean,

From the latest plan you link to it looks like the impact on the course would look something like this...


The orange is the railway line with the white the approximate bottom of the embankment. So it looks like th 9th and the clubhouse are both gone but the bulk of Colt's course would still be there, assuming construction traffic wouldn't rip it all up.

Assuming the club would receive a degree of compensation, it looks to me like there is the possibility of keeping the bulk of the course, building a new house and then rerouting with a few new holes? They would also need to build at least one extra tunnel under the line, but the real trick would be to come up with a routing that flows and works with what they've already got?

I've not played there, but you have Sean, what do you think?

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

Boony

That seems like a better look than the official map.  The problem is the rail going straight thru the middle making the some of the edge of property holes somewhat difficult to use.  Maybe if some holes were reversed it could work on the existing property if the the two stands of wood (top left and bottom left - assuming they aren't WHGC property now -  and the removal of trees) can be purchased, but returning 9s would be a serious problem.  It would be interesting to see what an archie could come up with keeping in mind some of the better holes such as 3, 4, 7, 12, 13, 14 & 16.  #18 and the 6th green are good as well, but I can't see how they can be saved.   Anybody on the site want to have a go?  You never know, maybe there is a job just waiting for you!

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Whittington Heath - revised layout proposal 1





Assuming the club is given additional land by the barracks for a new clubhouse and driving range/practice area outside the heath.

This is a initial proposed layout, based on Sean's comments that the better holes 3,4,7,12,13,14,16 are retained. It is to start from the original first hole, then a new 2nd hole from the existing 5th tee to a new green which straightens the hole then thro a tunnel under HS2. The new 3rd is the existing 7th then onto the 15th tee to a new green creating a new short par 4 playing as the 4th hole. The new 5th is to the 16th green but from a new tee. The 6th is the existing 14th, the new 7th - existing 12th, the new 8th - existing 13th and finally the new 9th from the existing 17th tee to a new green on the existing 18th fairway.

Back nine starts from a new tee alongside the existing 17th green (new practice green for the 10th tee) to the existing 11th green.
The new 11th is the existing 8th. The new 12th is on the existing 10th hole but plays the opposite way. Then cross HS2 to a new tee which plays to the existing 2nd green playing as the new 13th hole. The new 14th is the existing 3rd. Holes 15 and 16 are new holes - a short par 4 then a medium/long par 4. The 17th is the existing 4th hole and then finishing off from the existing 2nd tee to a green just by the existing 18th green as a long par 4 finish like the current one.

I have not been there - this is just a feasible layout whether a full 18 can fit on site.

Cheers
Ben 

[Sean_A]

Ben

Well done.  Apart from a few awkward walks and the more than one tunnel I envisioned, the routing may just work.  Now, lets assume the Barracks aren't going to give up their playing field for a ne WGGC clubhouse.  What can you make of the routing then?  I didn't realize the one you did would be so cramped.  If it helps any, the land from the house drops down a fair amount to the current 10th green and 9th tee.  The 18th comes back up tis incline.  The slope is more gentle heading toward A51 cutting through the 8th green and more or less the middle of 11, 12, 13 14 and 16. 

This is probably a good little exercise for all the wanna be archies on this board and maybe even some seasoned ones. 

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

Well done.  Apart from a few awkward walks and the more than one tunnel I envisioned, the routing may just work.  Now, lets assume the Barracks aren't going to give up their playing field for a ne WGGC clubhouse.  What can you make of the routing then?  I didn't realize the one you did would be so cramped.  If it helps any, the land from the house drops down a fair amount to the current 10th green and 9th tee.  The 18th comes back up tis incline.  The slope is more gentle heading toward A51 cutting through the 8th green and more or less the middle of 11, 12, 13 14 and 16. 

This is probably a good little exercise for all the wanna be archies on this board and maybe even some seasoned ones. 

Ciao

Sean,

Thanks for reply. I admit its quite a good start. It is common that the less land that is available the more straight the holes are. The aim is to get a 18 hole course to fit in the heathland that is left/available.

The clubhouse can be built on the proposed 18th green and a shorter 18th is built instead if the barracks don't give their land. Anyway the Government owns that land and it can give it to the club as compensation for the loss of land by HS2!.

Google Earth gives basic levels across the golf course - I assumed that the proposed 2nd is downhill and the proposed 16th is uphill.

Northants County has a few walks in between some holes it shouldnt be a problem. Also it will be tricky to create a layout with only 1 crossing - 2 is better not just for golfers but also greenkeeper access as well.

Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Ben

Just for the heck of it, assume the club is in debt and wants to take a chunk of their money to pay it off - these are austere times ya know.  So, the house and lot must go on the current property.  It would also be nice to have a practive ground fairly close to the house or at least have car access to it.  

I like what you did on the proposed 5th legging the hole right rather than the current 17th legging left.  I hate the tee shot as it is now because one is aiming toward a vey busy road.  Sure its a wild shot to hit the road, but with these flat bellies wanting to play the big draw its an issue.  I don't like the walk after #2 - it cruises past two holes.  Is there anyway to lengthen it and bring the green closer to the tunnel.  The 16th looks to be a short, blind par 4, but it might be possible to shorten it more.  That will be a nasty climb out of a deep hollow to the 17th tee, but I agree, that hoolow has to be used somehow.  It may serve better to play over/along it to a green on its precipice.  The current 6th plays over/around that deep hollow.  Shit, you could even get fancy and create a double green with #s 2 and 15 by extending them both a bit.  

One potential problem is the par 3s.  They seem to be fairly close in yardage.  The current set is quite good with a bit more variety in the long 15th.  Any solutions?  I would think adding one or two for a total of 5 or 6 may go a long way to easing crowding.  

Ciao

[James Boon]

What the hell, there goes my lunch break!

Sean, Ben,

Here is my stab at it, coming from Sean's more economically sensitive point of view:


5 New greens, 1 realigned
4 new tees
Old 18th fairway used as small practice area, accesses under proposed road bridge or with its own CP at far end.
Only one bridge

- 6 could possibly reuse the existing 6th tees?
- As a shortish par 4, players walking to the 18th are in the fireling line a bit...
- 8 will reuse the current 10th green if possible, or at least realign it somehow
- 9 could possibly have a new tee further back?
- 16 might need a new tee, but I'm assuming they could reuse the existing 10th?
- 17th a totally new par 3 (I seem to have sketched a Redan a'like)
- 18th a totally new long 4 / short 5 (complete with Colt homage diagonal bunkers )

That was quite good fun! I'm off to do some real work, so feel free to shoot me down!

Cheers,

James

[Paul_Turner]

James' design preserves a decent amount of the original design with short walks so it gets my vote so far.

I think the original 8th and 10th could be left unchanged (as 8th and 16th respectively), both have neat greens.  Just put up with slightly longer walks.

But would the proposed par 3 17th be steeply up hill or perhaps blind?  I remember the current 9th tee being pretty high up.

[Ben Stephens]

James' design preserves a decent amount of the original design with short walks so it gets my vote so far.

I think the original 8th and 10th could be left unchanged (as 8th and 16th respectively), both have neat greens.  Just put up with slightly longer walks.

But would the proposed par 3 17th be steeply up hill or perhaps blind?  I remember the current 9th tee being pretty high up.

Paul,

I agree with the above re: James' layout apart from that the course is now under 6000 yards possibly 5600 ish and one access route across the course will be an headache for the greenkeepers - it is more sensible to have 2 or even 3 in case one is closed.

The amount of compensation the club will get from the HS2 will be quite a lot - so it will be worth trying to create a similar course to what they have already got.

Boony

Why not switch your 16 around so that it becomes 9 plus create an access from 9th green to clubhouse + tweak the back nine a bit I think its still feasible. I am not sure about the location of your clubhouse being quite close to the railway! I would put it in the grey area in front of the 1st tee.

Cheers
Ben

[Paul_Turner]

Ben

I don't think the yardage drop would be that much.  If the current course is about 6500yds then I think James' would be about 6100-6200?

The 9th is lost 500yds, but James' new 18th is about the same.   The current 18th is lost 450yds and James' 17th (200yds) is gained.  About 50 yds loss at the 2nd and 6th.  There rest are the same or close.

Agree you need more than one crossing.  I can think of a Colt course that does have only one crossing over a railway, Beaconsfield.  But it's much closer to the clubhouse than James has.

Surely this HS2 isn't a done deal.  The country is broke and they've picked just about the only oasis of heath in the area to plough through.

[Matt_Cohn]

I thought I'd try a low-impact version, preserving as many of the current holes as I could. The 18th is a tough part; if you accept the 18th being a par-3, it's not tough, but if you insist on a two- or three-shot finisher, then you basically have to change everything.

[Tim Nugent]

I've been involved in several "takings", albeit never a Bisector such as this, and the common denominator usually is two-fold - "use as much of the existing course as possible to 1) keep cost down and 2) keep disruption to play at a minimum.  Remember, clubs still incurr staff and operating expenses even whrn a a course is closed.  You have to keep paying the staff, taxes, ect. and revenues from the deminished level of play will also be down. Clubs will also see the compensation as a windfall they don't want to spend on course reconstruction. At a certain point, it may be cheaper to build a new 18 elsewhere and sell this land as the new 18 can be constructed and grown in while members play the "old" course and then just seamlessly "switch over".
The 1st couple of attempts, while interesting, IMHO, would cause too much disruption and cost too much.  I was thinking of something along the lines to what Matt just illustrated.   Look at trying to get one more par 4 on the front 9 side of the tracks and extending #15 to a short 4.  Matt's 9 green would get killed by his 10th tee.  A minimally invasive solution probably doesn't allow a returning 9 a d they may have to entertain 5 par 3's (even with 15 becoming a 4).  Some length can be gotten by the extention of 17 (as Matt shows) along with add ing the ?abandoned? Par 3 between existing 10 and 11 to #11.

[Sean_A]

This is very fine!   I think Matt & Boony are on the right track with more par 3s to smooth out the routing.  Although, I was hoping to eliminate the the uphill nature of the 9th - a hole I don't care for.  I also would like to see the hollow for #5 better used than the current course does.  Its a bit of a waste of an excellent feature.

Matt

#6 looks to have too much turn in the leg too early.  It would be one of those layup with a iron and leave a wood home holes.  

There are serious safety issues with 9 and 10.  It might be an idea to push the 10th fairway over to meet the 17th fairway, but still use what looks like an abandoned green.

Boony

I think the course looks to be longer than 5600 yards!  Maybe 6100ish from the back tees.  This could threaten its status as a Open qualifier.  

Why have you changed the tee for #6?

As Paul stated, #17 could be a very harsh par 3, but if a tee further up the bank could found this could be a very interesting hole.  

#8 might be a bit of a bore, may need to trick that green up.  

Tim

I am envisioning practically the entire course shut down during railway construction.  There may be a way to play 9 holes or whatever.  This will be a major project and the house would obviously be torn down. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Here are the two proposed routes for the HS2 with the course in the middle.

Blue is the original proposal which missed the course.  Red is as currently proposed.   The switch from Blue to Red was due to protests from residents in Lichfield (the large town on the map).  I don't know if the club is fighting this proposal.

I wonder if the course could be saved with a combination of red/blue.

[Ben Stephens]

This is very fine!   I think Matt & Boony are on the right track with more par 3s to smooth out the routing.  Although, I was hoping to eliminate the the uphill nature of the 9th - a hole I don't care for.  I also would like to see the hollow for #5 better used than the current course does.  Its a bit of a waste of an excellent feature.

Matt

#6 looks to have too much turn in the leg too early.  It would be one of those layup with a iron and leave a wood home holes.  

There are serious safety issues with 9 and 10.  It might be an idea to push the 10th fairway over to meet the 17th fairway, but still use what looks like an abandoned green.

Boony

I think the course looks to be longer than 5600 yards!  Maybe 6100ish from the back tees.  This could threaten its status as a Open qualifier.  

Why have you changed the tee for #6?

As Paul stated, #17 could be a very harsh par 3, but if a tee further up the bank could found this could be a very interesting hole.  

#8 might be a bit of a bore, may need to trick that green up.  

Tim

I am envisioning practically the entire course shut down during railway construction.  There may be a way to play 9 holes or whatever.  This will be a major project and the house would obviously be torn down.  

Ciao

Sean,

I agree that Matt and Boony have made subtle changes but in most ways it is taking the course backwards like you said the club would lose its hosting rights to be a Open Regional qualifing course. I would use the money to make the weak holes stronger and create a similar or better course than the one it replaces.

There will be a timescale for the HS2 project which will give plenty of time for the club to modify the course and clubhouse. The new clubhouse and new holes/tees/greens would be built with the aim of not disrupting play on the current course and then the new clubhouse will be open and new course is in play by the time while HS2 is beng constructed.

The other potential issue is closeness of the holes to the railway - I know there is an outline of the line does that indicate the construction outline as opposed to a buffer zone from wayward golf balls. If there is a required buffer zone that would mean more land becomes unavailable.

The other thing on the website it says that it has a 'Heathland course' as well as 'Whittington Heath course'. Where would these heathland holes be?

Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Ben

I am envisioning an area much wider than the what is shown as a construction site plus access.  I also think you could be right concerning the some play close to the tracks, but that may depend on how fast the train is allowed to run through this area.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

I seriously doubt the course can be rebuilt before the track is laid, but I could be wrong.  I am envisioning an area much wider than the what is shown as a construction site plus access.  I also think you could be right concerning the some play close to the tracks, but that may depend on how fast the train is allowed to run through this area.

Ciao

Sean,

At Scarborough South Cliff course they built new holes in without disrupting play before they built a large roundabout in the middle of the course. Legally the owners of the land will have the right to modify without disruption before the land is handed over to the highways and the railways.

These new trains are envisaged to travel at 200mph throught the countryside! My mate has hit a HST 125 at a speed before off the 1st at Monifieth!!!

This is a very interesting exercise - well done Sean! - anyway the HS2 line is not finalised. In the end hopefully it will divert around the course maybe possibly as it could be a future SSSI or protected heathland.

Cheers
Ben

[Paul_Turner]

Ben

The whole course was heathland.  Then they planted trees and it's no so "heathy"now.  There has been some clearing recently to restore heather I think mostly on the back 9.    

There is still however, heather on nearly all the holes and so I'm hoping they will have a way to stop this on environmental grounds.

If the course had been restored to say "Walton Heath" style, then I think it might be in a stronger position as a "rare" environment to preserve.

The web claims that trains will fly through every 4-5 mins!  I can't see the course ever recovering if this goes ahead, it'll always be diminished.

[Sean_A]

Paul

I am guessing fewer houses are effected by the current proposed route which is a high priority given teh grief of HS1.  While more public consultation needs to take place, I bet this route will stick (the gov't has already compromised) and that HS2 will go ahead. 

Like you, I don't really see WHGC recovering from this blow very well.  As I say more is the pity because this is a very cool course that unfortunately hasn't been well looked after.

Ciao 

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