[Paul_Turner]

Sean

The whole project seems to be questionable.  Britain is so small, I don't think 400 km/hr trains are a good use of money.

I'm not sure the club was aware of this new route until it was sprung on them!  And I still think the line could be shifted slightly to save the course and keep it away from Lichfield.

This sort of project pushes me towards the libertarian line on property rights and government interference.

I think I would have WH in my top 20 Colt's.  How about you?

[Sean_A]

Paul

I was very high on the course for a few years as I greatly admire the routing and some features.  But the relentless rough and narrowing of fairways has gone some way to putting me off it.  If ideally (or even reasonably) kept I would place Whittington very high on my Colt favourites and perhaps my favourite of the minor Colt courses I have played.  I couldn't say about top 20 because I haven't played enough Colt's to have a proper top 20 - tee hee.  That said, any true Colt Head should see WHGC because it does represent something a bit different for him.  I suspect some of that may be down to what he inhereted.  As you know, I think how Colt worked with non-original courses may have been his strongest suit.   

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

To me the strength of the course is its subtlety and how it fits with the land.  Just simple stuff like how that spur/ridge affects the 8th tee shot or how the 17th green is angled.  I love the way most of the greens are either extensions of the fairways or are subtle developments of the natural bumpy land.

In the Colt oeuvre I think De Pan in Netherlands is its closest cousin.   Pan is fairly flat on a macro scale but has perfect subtle bumps.

I hate that this HS2 may well wreck the course.  And I do hope the club puts up a fight.  But if this is inevitable and you had to draw a line through the course, I think this would be the "least" bad option.  It destroys the fewest holes, and the 9th, while not a bad hole at all, is definitely a lesser hole at WHGC.

I wonder if the club owns the land or does the Army own it?
 

[Sean_A]

Paul

I couldn't agree with you more.  There are a lot of cool features when you take a good look.  The little blind slit hollow to the right of the 14th green is great with that green moving so much from right to left.  Both green complexes (includng the humps) for#s 12 & 16.  That crazy 8 like shape green for #13 with the tight bunkering.  Th deceptive angling of the 18th green.  Then as if to remind us that Colt worked here the seemingly out of the blue patented Colt 11th hole.  The hidden dip short of the 1st green which works well because the green moves front to back.  There are many more examples of the subtlety, but you get the picture.  

The club owns the land, but I don't know the boundaries.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Paul,

Whilst agreeing with much of what you write, high speed train lines are one of the very best ways this country can spend money on infrastructure and, as a resident of the North East, I can assure you that money does need to be spent on infrastructure.

Mark

[Mark Chaplin]

The thought that a golf club's needs could change the route of a multi billion pound project is laughable.

Having been a member of a club affected by a new bypass I can give the following observations;

The compensation paid turned out to be generous.

It took a long time to get the money, several years after the project finished.

Even a £5k advance to build a screen of trees was rejected, any club expenditure had to be made and claimed back in due course (with no guarantees it would be accepted.

Few clubs can afford to cover the costs up front of alterations and new courses without 100% guarantees on getting the correct level of compensation.

[Ben Stephens]

Going back to the main subject

Here is my second proposal for a rejigged course. Taking into consideration of a larger buffer zone from the railway, only one access across the HS2 line and Sean's (acting as a hypothetical client!) request for 2 nine hole loops and keeping holes 3,4,7,12,13,14!



The opening 3 holes are as they are (downside is that first tee is quite a walk from new clubhouse but it is a compromise), the 2nd  fairway is moved to the right to allow for room for the new 8th hole. The new 4th plays to the right of the existing 6th - the green is to be a recreation of the existing 6th green. The new 5th goes toward the 2nd tee. The 6th is the existing 5th but straightened into a short par 4. Hole 7 is the existing 4th. Hole 8 is new then back cross the HS2 line - to a new 9th hole based on the 10th at Pine Valley so that the front nine loop ends at the clubhouse.

Back nine starts on an extended 11th hole (the existing 10th fairway is turned into a practice ground) then the new 11th is the existing 8th. the new 12th plays to the existing 7th green from a different angle. New holes 13 to 18 are the existing 12 to 17.

Have fun

Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Ben

What do you tink of this plan compared to your first attempt?  I like what you did to the 12th and the practice area.  Your 6th may be problematic as the carry over that hollow is immense, but if it teh fairway extended much more back to the tee maybe thats okay.  The 2nd too could be a problem.  The course is a tight fit, but it works.  What sort of yardage is it? 

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

What do you tink of this plan compared to your first attempt?  I like what you did to the 12th and the practice area.  Your 6th may be problematic as the carry over that hollow is immense, but if it teh fairway extended much more back to the tee maybe thats okay.  The 2nd too could be a problem.  The course is a tight fit, but it works.  What sort of yardage is it? 

Ciao

Sean

Here is the estimated yardage of proposed layout 2. The other thing New hole 12 could be a short driveable par 4 instead of a long par 3 which will probably appeal more to both older and younger members.

Hole 01 – 540 yards par 5
Hole 02 – 370 yards par 4 (slightly shorter + new dogleg)
Hole 03 – 405 yards par 4
Hole 04 – 410 yards par 4
Hole 05 – 505 yards par 5
Hole 06 – 280 yards par 4
Hole 07 – 175 yards par 3
Hole 08 – 465 yards par 4
Hole 09 – 160 yards par 3

OUT – 3310 yards par 36

Hole 10 – 570 yards par 5
Hole 11 – 375 yards par 4
Hole 12 – 235 yards par 3 or 300 yard par 4?
Hole 13 – 410 yards par 4
Hole 14 – 145 yards par 3
Hole 15 – 450 yards par 4
Hole 16 – 210 yards par 3
Hole 17 – 395 yards par 4
Hole 18 – 425 yards par 4

IN – 3215 yards par 34 or 3280 par 35
TOTAL -  6525 yards par 70 or 6590 yards par 71

This layout is probably better than my first attempt in trying to make as few changes and retain what ‘Whittington Heath’ is all about. Also it works if there is a buffer zone created between the ‘playing areas’ and the railway track. 

Cheers
Ben


PS. If the club need an architect to consult on the changes please let Boony or I know.

[James Boon]

A few repsonses to comments on my sketch...

Sean,

- Yes 6th tee could remain I suspect. I don't know why I drew those?
- I liked the idea of pushing the 6th green beyond the track there as Matt did. I can see the tee problems which is perhaps why I didn't but it could be similar to the 6th green at Colt's Swinley?
- 8th green need tricking up? Are you saying that just because I don't draw a few bunkers around it? Not like you

Paul,

- Yes, the 8th and 16th (current 10th) could be left as they are, I just figured for this quick sketch that swapping them would flow better.
- I'm not certain if the 17th would be too much uphill, but a little uphill wouldn't bother me. I'm thinking of Colt's 14th at Wentworth West?

Ben,

- The clubhouse could be moved away from the line, I probably sketched it too close.
- There is certainly some room to get returning nines but I'm not too bothered about that, maybe I play too much out and back links golf? I know the club have it at the moment, but if it was me I'd be advising they are better off keeping more of the original Colt design and compromising on the returning nines?
- Yes 2 or 3 bridges would be better. I was looking to see if the club could get bye with the cost of just one, and possibly negotiate to have the road bridge widened to allow a narrow access strip for the club?
- You mention the yardage, which I haven't measured as it was just a quick sketch, but I'm sure there is a bit of room to stretch some holes? 2, 3 and 18 could all be lengthened from what I've sketched. 13 could become a short 4, with 14 lengthened, as I think Tim mentioned, at a later date to reduce disruption? But thats all based aeround the club getting Open qualifying back? I suspect with these works it would be off the rota for a while anyway and so other lengthening or adjustments could be dones at a aletr date, again to avoid disruption in an attempt to have at least the bones of a playable course while the HS2 gets built.

I think Tim has it right in that the whole idea would be to keep costs down (Mark does say the chances are any compensation would take some time to get hold of) and reduce disruption to the members that the club will be desperate to keep on.

Its funny, when I first posted the plan showing the route of the HS2 "only" wiping out the 9th and cutting the 18th in half, I thought to myself that would be easy to come up with a solution. But the biggest nightmare about splitting the course in two would be keeping a course open at all through the works. If it was wiping out 4 or 5 holes on the edge, there would at least be the possibility of keeping 9 holes open through the works?

Cheers,

James

[James Boon]

Ben,

Nice work with both your layouts, though I think they have too many changes for my likeing? They do though a, show the potential of the land for an 18 holes course even with the HS2 running through it, and b, suggest a possible masterplan for future changes if within the designs there could be a way of keeping some of the other works, such as the changes to the holes in the woods top left, to a later date.

Interesting that you seem to be viewing it as the potential for the land, while I seem to be keener on preserving the Colt heritage of the course? Maybe thats the professional to amateur GCA divide?

Cheers,

James

ps Is that a job offer?

[Paul_Turner]

Going back to the main subject

Here is my second proposal for a rejigged course. Taking into consideration of a larger buffer zone from the railway, only one access across the HS2 line and Sean's (acting as a hypothetical client!) request for 2 nine hole loops and keeping holes 3,4,7,12,13,14!



The opening 3 holes are as they are (downside is that first tee is quite a walk from new clubhouse but it is a compromise), the 2nd  fairway is moved to the right to allow for room for the new 8th hole. The new 4th plays to the right of the existing 6th - the green is to be a recreation of the existing 6th green. The new 5th goes toward the 2nd tee. The 6th is the existing 5th but straightened into a short par 4. Hole 7 is the existing 4th. Hole 8 is new then back cross the HS2 line - to a new 9th hole based on the 10th at Pine Valley so that the front nine loop ends at the clubhouse.

Back nine starts on an extended 11th hole (the existing 10th fairway is turned into a practice ground) then the new 11th is the existing 8th. the new 12th plays to the existing 7th green from a different angle. New holes 13 to 18 are the existing 12 to 17.

Have fun

Cheers
Ben

I like this effort.  The greens are a great set at WH and worth keeping, the 2nd green is superb and I'm glad to see it preserved in your plan.

The current 6th green is on quite a steep drop so I'm not quite sure what your 4th would play like.  Also I'm not too sure about the terrain for you new 5th.

Unless my memory is failing me, I disagree with Sean that the carry would be too much on your realigned 6th.

[Ben Stephens]

I have just looked at the ARUP drawing - and the section shows a BRIDGE over the valley starting from where the existing 6th green!
Sounds a bit like Royal Queensland with their road bridge. There should be an underpass anyway so we will need an access link to the bottom part of the site.

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Going back to the main subject

Here is my second proposal for a rejigged course. Taking into consideration of a larger buffer zone from the railway, only one access across the HS2 line and Sean's (acting as a hypothetical client!) request for 2 nine hole loops and keeping holes 3,4,7,12,13,14!



The opening 3 holes are as they are (downside is that first tee is quite a walk from new clubhouse but it is a compromise), the 2nd  fairway is moved to the right to allow for room for the new 8th hole. The new 4th plays to the right of the existing 6th - the green is to be a recreation of the existing 6th green. The new 5th goes toward the 2nd tee. The 6th is the existing 5th but straightened into a short par 4. Hole 7 is the existing 4th. Hole 8 is new then back cross the HS2 line - to a new 9th hole based on the 10th at Pine Valley so that the front nine loop ends at the clubhouse.

Back nine starts on an extended 11th hole (the existing 10th fairway is turned into a practice ground) then the new 11th is the existing 8th. the new 12th plays to the existing 7th green from a different angle. New holes 13 to 18 are the existing 12 to 17.

Have fun

Cheers
Ben

I like this effort.  The greens are a great set at WH and worth keeping, the 2nd green is superb and I'm glad to see it preserved in your plan.

The current 6th green is on quite a steep drop so I'm not quite sure what your 4th would play like.  Also I'm not too sure about the terrain for you new 5th.

Unless my memory is failing me, I disagree with Sean that the carry would be too much on your realigned 6th.

Paul,

The proposed 4th is similar to the 4th a Luffenham Heath (Colt/White/Braid) it is an interesting hole.

Hole 5 should be an uphill short par 5.

There are 4 new greens on proposed layout 2 and new holes go through some areas of existing fairway which should help to offset costs. Also opening up the trees on the new 4th and 5th should recreate the heathland environment.

Cheers
Ben

[Adrian_Stiff]

With respect, one of the key important factors is to minimise the amount of the change and the retention of as much as possible of the existing course is likely to be the biggest winner.

The course needs to be playable as much as possible throughout the period of construction change and costs are a likely factor, new greens cost lots, re designing golf courses is a total different art to total new build and symphathy with existing architecture is fairly important in swaying green committees.

I looked at this in 2D and before I saw anyones routing pretty much came up with the third one.

The first five holes are fine as they are and the 6th can keep much of the existing but would need a new green tucked right( I assume its possible). 7 and 8 are fine as they are, I would re-route the 9th pretty much backwards down the 10th and a new 10th (short par 4) is possible on the open ground currently below the 11 tees, the rest I'd keep as is save extend 17 as Ben did then finish with a short hole.

So four new greens, most holes and their numbers kept intact, I think the course length could be retained, but more importantly the course is largely unchanged.

[Ben Stephens]

I must say that this is a very interesting topic - Sean should take credit for it. This is what GCA is really all about discussing different ideas and layouts. I think we have come up with the conclusion that HS2 is NOT the end of Whittington Heath. The course will take a hit and then come back with some 'minor' adjustments and the most important thing is that it is feasible to come up with a rejigged layout of similar yardage.

I would have thought that a lot of golf courses built before WW2 lost a number of holes or changed post war to make way for farming, airfields, developments etc. I know the current layout at Luffenham Heath is not the original - Holes 9, 11 and 12 are new but they do make the course 'cramped' I would have liked to play the 3 original 'meadow' holes originally designed but sadly they are NLE. This is a similar approach to what a lot of clubs had to do during and post war.

Downfield is another example - the majority of the Braid holes have gone to development. The original course can be seen on Google Earth 1945 maps half of the holes remain or been rejigged.

This shows that we are adaptable for the better or worse!

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,

Nice work with both your layouts, though I think they have too many changes for my likeing? They do though a, show the potential of the land for an 18 holes course even with the HS2 running through it, and b, suggest a possible masterplan for future changes if within the designs there could be a way of keeping some of the other works, such as the changes to the holes in the woods top left, to a later date.

Interesting that you seem to be viewing it as the potential for the land, while I seem to be keener on preserving the Colt heritage of the course? Maybe thats the professional to amateur GCA divide?

Cheers,

James

ps Is that a job offer?

James,

Yes you might be trying to preserve the Colt features of the course - I am trying to create like for like or even make it better. Did Braid do that on a lot of courses by Colt and Mackenzie, etc over the years?

My opinion is that if the Colt features were preserved - the course will be shorter taking it backwards rather than try and progress it forward to today's ball game.

Cheers
Ben

PS. We have to take what we can in the current climate workwise!

[Paul_Turner]

Ben,

Nice work with both your layouts, though I think they have too many changes for my likeing? They do though a, show the potential of the land for an 18 holes course even with the HS2 running through it, and b, suggest a possible masterplan for future changes if within the designs there could be a way of keeping some of the other works, such as the changes to the holes in the woods top left, to a later date.

Interesting that you seem to be viewing it as the potential for the land, while I seem to be keener on preserving the Colt heritage of the course? Maybe thats the professional to amateur GCA divide?

Cheers,

James

ps Is that a job offer?

James,

Yes you might be trying to preserve the Colt features of the course - I am trying to create like for like or even make it better. Did Braid do that on a lot of courses by Colt and Mackenzie, etc over the years?

My opinion is that if the Colt features were preserved - the course will be shorter taking it backwards rather than try and progress it forward to today's ball game.

Cheers
Ben

PS. We have to take what we can in the current climate workwise!

Ben I think there's virtually zero chance of having a better golf course with the HS2 running through the middle. And no Braid didn't do much to Colt's courses.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul,

Whilst agreeing with much of what you write, high speed train lines are one of the very best ways this country can spend money on infrastructure and, as a resident of the North East, I can assure you that money does need to be spent on infrastructure.

Mark

Mark

Given how communications are changing, I think the HS2 idea is well past it prime and I'm sceptical it will pay off. 

No matter the who's in power in the UK it seems that the countryside always loses out to the cities.  In my mind, the British countryside and the smaller communities are its crown jewel.  Great variety and nearly always pleasant to look in comparison with other European countries. 

In contrast, the large British towns and cities tend to be drab and unexceptional compared with European counterparts.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,

Nice work with both your layouts, though I think they have too many changes for my likeing? They do though a, show the potential of the land for an 18 holes course even with the HS2 running through it, and b, suggest a possible masterplan for future changes if within the designs there could be a way of keeping some of the other works, such as the changes to the holes in the woods top left, to a later date.

Interesting that you seem to be viewing it as the potential for the land, while I seem to be keener on preserving the Colt heritage of the course? Maybe thats the professional to amateur GCA divide?

Cheers,

James

ps Is that a job offer?

James,

Yes you might be trying to preserve the Colt features of the course - I am trying to create like for like or even make it better. Did Braid do that on a lot of courses by Colt and Mackenzie, etc over the years?

My opinion is that if the Colt features were preserved - the course will be shorter taking it backwards rather than try and progress it forward to today's ball game.

Cheers
Ben

PS. We have to take what we can in the current climate workwise!

Ben I think there's virtually zero chance of having a better golf course with the HS2 running through the middle. And no Braid didn't do much to Colt's courses.

Paul,

That might be your opinion that having a zero chance of having at better golf course - it always depends who is working on it and the time and effort into the design, construction and understanding Colt's design philosophy and style.

Based on Sean's tasks/comments most of us tried to keep the strong Colt holes and improve or retain as much of the affected holes. The drawings are at early stage - if I worked/developed it into more detail I would have put an effort to make it stronger taking reference of Colt holes not only at Whittington but at other Colt courses so that the course is stronger from 1-18 whether there is HS2 going through the course or not.
 
Colt did not always do a great course - the majority are good there are a few weak ones. Braid worked on a lot of course improvements for example Luffenham (Colt/White course), Carnoustie and Reddish Vale etc after Colt and Mackenzie, etc died.

A lot of golf courses evolve - there are very few 'pure' Colt courses nowadays.

Cheers
Ben
  

[Sean_A]

I must say that this is a very interesting topic - Sean should take credit for it. This is what GCA is really all about discussing different ideas and layouts. I think we have come up with the conclusion that HS2 is NOT the end of Whittington Heath. The course will take a hit and then come back with some 'minor' adjustments and the most important thing is that it is feasible to come up with a rejigged layout of similar yardage.

I would have thought that a lot of golf courses built before WW2 lost a number of holes or changed post war to make way for farming, airfields, developments etc. I know the current layout at Luffenham Heath is not the original - Holes 9, 11 and 12 are new but they do make the course 'cramped' I would have liked to play the 3 original 'meadow' holes originally designed but sadly they are NLE. This is a similar approach to what a lot of clubs had to do during and post war.

Downfield is another example - the majority of the Braid holes have gone to development. The original course can be seen on Google Earth 1945 maps half of the holes remain or been rejigged.

This shows that we are adaptable for the better or worse!

Cheers
Ben

Ben

Yes, I was pleasantly surprised to see much of the course can be preserved if the powers that be want to.  I have a feeling that the club would want at the very least like for like in terms of difficulty and that preserving Colt's work wouldn't be a priority if that could be achieved.  That said, there would certainly be a tradeoff because I can't see the club wanting to spend most of a windfall on a course if it has the possibility to pack some money away.  I am not saying the club is cheap, but it doesn't strike me as terribly wealthy. 

Boony

I only meant your 8th is covering pretty dull ground and is dead straight. 

Paul

Hmm, I like Ben's 12th on his second effort. 

I honestly couldn't say if a few of these efforts are better or not than Whitty.  While I think the course is very good, there is considerable room for improvement.  #s 5, 6 (despite a wild green), 8, 9, 15 and 17 while not bad holes, could all use help.

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I think 5 would be easy to improve with tree clearing to expose the pit.   Same with the 6th. clear the trees down the right and expose that "cop".  I actually thought the 6th green doesn't look right,  my guess is it's a modern redo, but could be wrong.  9 could perhaps be helped with some more bunkers.

Don't agree that 8, 15 and 17 need anything though.  These are all fine holes with cracking greens.

[Paul_Turner]

Ben

I think there's zero chance of WH being a better golf course with the HS2 running through it because I like peace and quiet and do not like huge embankments.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Im in Paul's camp, better if the HS2 does not happen. I dont think in the short term WH can be bettered by a severe rehash. I think it needs sympathy in redesign. Whilst I dont know this course deeply and the bits that go with he HS2, noise and uglyness will play their part, are there overhead cables/ electrification involved? If yes, then that wont be pretty.
Its a simple re-do IMO, without looking at the topo and the extents of the railway encroachment its hard to be exact but 9 and 18 get butchered, there is space to get back with a 300 yarder from a tee by the current 17th green to a green by the current 11th tees, 17 needs to be extended into a big 5 so creates some room.
Most of this is simple green construction that can be implemented whilst the current course is in play, Id estimate the work at £150,000.
If the club really wanted to get the length back then an extension of the current 15th and 16th might be worth a thought, if 6500 is crucial.
1-5 unchanged (save an extension of tee at 3)
6 new green slightly riight
7-8 unchanged
9  new hole back up 10
10 new hole in ground between current 10 & 17
11-16 unchanged
17 extended into a par 5 up short of the new track
18 par 3 into existing green

Why mess it up even more????Why spend a million more???

[Paul_Turner]

Adrian

Losing the 18th is the biggest loss...it's a very good finisher.

Having the 17th as a par 5 to a green in the current 18th fairway wouldn't be too exciting in my view.  It's just not a very interesting site.

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