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PThomas

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additions to Doak's 12 10's?*
« on: January 07, 2011, 12:07:49 PM »
Tom gave 12 courses "10's" in his book..lots of courses built since then..what other courses - if any - deserve a 10?

*and/or, are there courses that existed at the time of his list that you feel should also have been 10s?

Sand Hiils?

Pacific Dunes?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 05:15:35 PM by Paul Thomas »
198 played, only 2 to go!!

Garland Bayley

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2011, 12:34:05 PM »
Tom gave 13 courses "10's" in his book..lots of courses built since then..what other courses - if any - deserve a 10?

Sand Hiils?

Pacific Dunes?


In past threads Tom has given Sand Hills a 10. He has indicated that PacD may be a 10, but it is not for him to judge.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Scott Szabo

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 02:57:33 PM »
For all the praise that Ballyneal has garnered recently, would anyone argue a 10 rating for it?
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Chip Gaskins

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 03:08:57 PM »
Ballyneal is a 10 in my book.  Along with RCD, Shinnecock and PV.  Thats it.

Ivan Lipko

Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 03:59:18 PM »
Does anyone mind to post the whole list of "original 10s"? Or throw me a link to it.
Thanks a lot!

Mac Plumart

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 04:01:47 PM »
I believe published in 1996...

Ballybunion (old)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Merion (east)
Muirfield
National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Pinehurst #2
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne (west)
Shinnecock Hills
St. Andrews (old)



Significant courses built after 1996...

Pacific Dunes
Whistiling Straits
Bandon Dunes
Ballyneal
Sebonack
Friars Head
Old Sandwich
Kinloch
Kingsley
Chambers Bay
Calusa Pines
Colorado Golf Club
Bayonne
Bandon Trails
Dallas National
Kingsbarns
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Nine Bridges
Nanea
Kauri Cliffs
Oitavos Dunes

« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 04:35:36 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Martin Toal

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 04:35:11 PM »
I believe published in 1996...

Ballybunion (old)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Merion (east)
Muirfield
National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Pinehurst #2
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne (west)
Shinnecock Hills
St. Andrews (old)


Ah, published in 1996, that explains why Trump National LA is not listed  ;D ;D

Ivan Lipko

Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2011, 04:37:10 PM »
Thanks a lot, sir! Really interesting that Pinehurst No.2 stands so high - I'd say it somewhat lacks the wow factor. At the very same time I have to admit it posesses the most outstanding bunkering I have ever experienced!

Also, from the list of the recent courses I'd add  Ballyneal and may be Pacific Dunes. Never played any of those though, my opinion is solely based on the pictorials from GCA forums! -))

BTW, have you forgotten to add Old Macdonald to that list? Or you don't think it is good enough?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 04:40:20 PM by Ivan Lipko »

Mac Plumart

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2011, 04:39:32 PM »
The beauty of this list is that it is one person's, Tom Doak's, and he lists his preferences (biases) in detail in the beginning of the book. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

JR Potts

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2011, 05:33:30 PM »
I would suspect that Pinehurst #2 would have been removed around 2000 and I further suspect he would add it back in a little over a year.

John Kirk

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2011, 05:42:28 PM »
The three moderns I consider a 10 are Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal.  Eventually, I think and hope people will begin to see Ballyneal as one of the true greats.

Home course bias?  Are you calling me biased?

Garland Bayley

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2011, 07:46:53 PM »
You wrote the article on bias. What do you think?

We think you are biased and a Tom Doak BB.
 :P

 :o

 ;D
The three moderns I consider a 10 are Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal.  Eventually, I think and hope people will begin to see Ballyneal as one of the true greats.

Home course bias?  Are you calling me biased?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Alex Miller

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2011, 08:44:53 PM »
There have also been some important restorations since 1996. LA North comes to mind.

Mac Plumart

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2011, 08:58:42 PM »
Alex...that is an excellent point.  I was actually reviewing the Confidential Guide and noticing how many of the courses had been rennovated.  Interestingly enough, many by Tom Doak and RGD.  

Any more key rennovations you guys can think of?  Pasatiempo?, LACC as Alex mentioned, East Lake (although nowhere near a 10), ...


EDIT...here is the bottom line, someone needs to come out with a newer version of the confidential guide.  Tom did the edition I got in 96.  It needs to be updated, but Tom ain't gonna do it...he's a bit busy.  But here is the deal, if you guys sit on your hands for too long...I'll come out with mine.  I've already got it started and am heading to Scotland this year and probably Australia next year.  Whoever wants to try to beat me to the punch has probably got a maximum of 5 years.  Ready...set...go!!! 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 09:02:13 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2011, 09:24:16 PM »
"We think you are biased and you are blah, blah, blah..."

Young man, I've been tested and proven to have a lower bias quotient than anybody in the club.  That's BQ, for you acronym geeks.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2011, 09:48:54 PM »

...here is the bottom line, someone needs to come out with a newer version of the confidential guide.  Tom did the edition I got in 96.  It needs to be updated, but Tom ain't gonna do it...he's a bit busy.  But here is the deal, if you guys sit on your hands for too long...I'll come out with mine.  I've already got it started and am heading to Scotland this year and probably Australia next year.  Whoever wants to try to beat me to the punch has probably got a maximum of 5 years.  Ready...set...go!!! 


Mac: 

More power to you, if you can sell your opinions to others.  And it's a big if.

The publisher for the color-photo edition of The Confidential Guide, Brian Lewis, liked to say that I was the only person in the world who could have written that book at that time.  I had probably seen 80-90% of the courses that you would have wanted to include, and I had something to say about most of them.  I think it would be tougher to do today ... there are 2,000 more courses in the world than there were in 1996, and a fair percentage of them would be considered "missing" if you didn't include them.

I could release the updated version of the book in about a month's time, if I really wanted to.  I even gave my most recent update to one person, but he would be disbarred if he so much as admitted to having it!  It will happen when you least expect it, which means Paul just set it back a bit by starting this thread.  But, it might happen the day after you release yours.  ;)

As for renovations, are you kidding me?  75% of the top 100 courses in the world have been renovated / restored / updated since 1996, or some crazy high percentage like that.  But for most, it would not change their rating on the Doak scale at all.  I'm not sure I would rate Pasatiempo any higher than I did before, as an example; the work was all excellent, but there are only one or two holes where it really made the hole much better, and the difference between a 7 and an 8 is more than that.

PThomas

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2011, 09:52:53 PM »
[...which means Paul just set it back a bit by starting this thread.  




i'm sure you just decreased my small-enough fan club by a few more Tom!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 10:00:50 PM by Paul Thomas »
198 played, only 2 to go!!

John Kirk

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2011, 09:56:40 PM »
It will happen when you least expect it, which means Paul just set it back a bit by starting this thread. 

...wielding his light saber around the room.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2011, 10:23:55 PM »

...here is the bottom line, someone needs to come out with a newer version of the confidential guide.  Tom did the edition I got in 96.  It needs to be updated, but Tom ain't gonna do it...he's a bit busy.  But here is the deal, if you guys sit on your hands for too long...I'll come out with mine.  I've already got it started and am heading to Scotland this year and probably Australia next year.  Whoever wants to try to beat me to the punch has probably got a maximum of 5 years.  Ready...set...go!!! 


Mac: 

More power to you, if you can sell your opinions to others.  And it's a big if.

The publisher for the color-photo edition of The Confidential Guide, Brian Lewis, liked to say that I was the only person in the world who could have written that book at that time.  I had probably seen 80-90% of the courses that you would have wanted to include, and I had something to say about most of them.  I think it would be tougher to do today ... there are 2,000 more courses in the world than there were in 1996, and a fair percentage of them would be considered "missing" if you didn't include them.

I could release the updated version of the book in about a month's time, if I really wanted to.  I even gave my most recent update to one person, but he would be disbarred if he so much as admitted to having it!  It will happen when you least expect it, which means Paul just set it back a bit by starting this thread.  But, it might happen the day after you release yours.  ;)

As for renovations, are you kidding me?  75% of the top 100 courses in the world have been renovated / restored / updated since 1996, or some crazy high percentage like that.  But for most, it would not change their rating on the Doak scale at all.  I'm not sure I would rate Pasatiempo any higher than I did before, as an example; the work was all excellent, but there are only one or two holes where it really made the hole much better, and the difference between a 7 and an 8 is more than that.

Tom...

Sell my opinions?  No sir.  I am not looking to make any money off of golf at all.  I'll self-publish this bad boy and give them away for free.  But the kicker is this, if you'll release your newest version the day after I release mine...I need to get crackin'...I owe it to the entire golfing world!!  The race is on!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ian Andrew

Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2011, 10:49:10 PM »
Tom,

This does lead to a potential question for your list....

Are there 10 courses that you now see very differently than the previous time you reviewed the course for the Confidential Guide?
That could involve maturation, renovation, or things gone horribly wrong too....


I know I've found my own taste has evolved over the last 10 years, I'm curious if yours has too.

Jim Nugent

Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2011, 01:02:57 AM »

As for renovations, are you kidding me?  75% of the top 100 courses in the world have been renovated / restored / updated since 1996, or some crazy high percentage like that.  But for most, it would not change their rating on the Doak scale at all.

Tom, even if the courses haven't changed much, how about changes in you?  

I get the sense you knew pretty well what you wanted when you started building courses.  Still, it's 15 years later.  You've designed/built/renovated dozens of courses.  Do you think you still see things the same way?  

ETA: I see Ian asked the same question a few hours before.  Note to self:  read first, post after (if at all)...

  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 01:45:20 PM by Jim Nugent »

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2011, 09:28:11 AM »
I would guess that Tom would give serious thought to giving Barnbougle a 10 as well.....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2011, 08:13:46 PM »
Jonathan:

I loved getting back to Barnbougle last month, and really could not have been happier with the condition of the course.  But I don't think I would be inclined to give it a 10, certainly not at this point.  I haven't played it enough to be comfortable with that.  Plus, there were three or four things I have suggested we do to the course when I get a chance -- nothing major, but little fixes that would help.

I am very hesitant to give out 10's.  If you want to know why, all you have to do is look at the 9's ... Pebble Beach, Augusta National, Prairie Dunes, Kingston Heath, etc.  You have to be pretty damned sure to rate a course HIGHER than that group, and doubly sure if it's one of your own.  To think I've built a handful of courses which could be considered for a 9, is probably better than building one which is a consensus 10.

As to Ian and Jim's question, I would have to think about it for a while.  My tastes have certainly evolved, but I would probably not change a rating in The Confidential Guide because of that ... an upgrade or a downgrade would have to involve either changes to the course, or a second look under better circumstances.  

I'm sure there are some courses that I underrated, especially in Britain, just because I saw 170 courses in that first trip overseas and the standard of the ones I visited was so darned high.  I didn't want to give everything a 6 or 7 or 8, but some of the 4's and 5's are probably better courses than that, if I went back and had a look without visiting the 7's and 8's down the road.  Gullane #2 is one example of that ... it didn't seem like much after two months in St. Andrews and love-at-first-sight visits to North Berwick and Muirfield in the same week, but when I went back and played it while working on The Renaissance Club, I found it was actually quite good and certainly way better than I remembered.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:15:56 PM by Tom_Doak »

Peter Pallotta

Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2011, 08:26:44 PM »
It's been tried here over and over again in various posts and thread over the years, but I still think there's a wonderful essay to be written on what makes for a rare and truly exceptional golf course (a "10" in other words).  To borrow a word from another thread, I'd imagine that those courses would, by definition, have something of the transcendant in them (not only in the sense that they surpass in architectural quality other and highly qualified contenders, but that they also express something higher than even that Quality itself). But how this transendance is manifested and experienced is the question worth exploring.  Maybe one day, many, many years from now, I might be better equipped to try to write it myself.  

Peter  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 08:28:37 PM by PPallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: additions to Doak's 13 10's?*
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2011, 08:30:19 PM »
Tom

One course that intrigues is me Yeamans Hall, though it isn't pressing anything like 10 status.  You gave it a 5 and intimated that it is now borderline top 100 in the world (essentially a 7 no?) at a later date.  I know at one time you said renos/redos etc rarely boost a course up more than 1 point.  Why does YHC get a two point boost from essentially run of the mill very good to the world stage?

I actually think #3 is better than #2 as it uses slopes better with the exception of the stupid par 3 down the hill.  Even so, as I can't see Gullane #1 being any better than 6, #s 2 or 3 can't be better than a 5 and I think that is pushing the boat out as far as it will go as it is still firmly attached to the dock.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Alnmouth & Cruden Bay St Olaf

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