[RJ_Daley]

Here is T shot 15th, spring early rough growth.  You can see the narrowness between 14-15.



For a reference to some of the best course photos in golf for purposes of discussion, it is hard to find a better site than:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Pages/usa.html

The problem there is you have to scroll through the many photos that aren't labeled for hole nor described as from where in FWs they are shot.  The Sand Hill link is very good.

[John Kirk]

I have Sand Hills 1 up after 14 holes.

My memory of each hole is sketchy.  The long iron or fairway wood shot into each hole is very enjoyable.  Both have big targets, though the front right bunker at Riviera's 15th green guards the right side of the green too well for my game, so I will almost always be chipping down to the pin from the left rough.

I'm going to go with Sand Hills here.  In comparison to Riviera's 15th, I think that the Sand Hills hole is multi-dimensional, with far more possible results.  I think it would be easier to make a 3 there, and easier to make a 7.  If you played each hole 100 times, you would experience far greater variety in the nature of your experiences at Sand Hills, and the quality of the shots at Sand Hills is not significantly less or greater than the quality of shots at Riviera #15.

Sand Hills wins, and goes 2 up with 3 to go.  Oh shit, how am I going to manipulate this to make it exciting?

To preview, I see Sand Hills winning 16, Riviera winning 17, and Sand Hills winning 18.  Wait a minute; I've figured it out.  I'll make 16 a draw.

[John Mayhugh]

Does anybody have a picture of Riviera's 15th green?  I remember that it is high on the left, but I couldn't remember if it had a swale in the middle, like a sideways Biarritz green, or if it was a sideways two tier green.  Does it have a high back right pin?

There is a high back right hole location - probably about the same height as front left. 

[John Kirk]

Thanks, John.  It sure is a nice golf hole.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks, John.  It sure is a nice golf hole.

John, I am shocked you can see the pic Mayhugh posted and not change your vote as you did on 12.  Coore and Crenshaw have a career to thank for from that green.  But it is your match and I respect your opinion.

I will continue on with the 16th tomorrow.  I just showed my hand so people could know this match is not over just because it is dormie.  As a matter of fact I have decided it will not end in a tie and will go to extra holes if necessary.  What do you think, sudden death or a four hole playoff?

Both courses are so great any hole can win on any given day so previous outcomes are not a lock to repeat.  But I am getting tired of this.

[Scott Warren]

John Kirk:

Another pic of 15 green at Riv that shows the height of the back portion compared to the front:

[John Mayhugh]

Thanks, John.  It sure is a nice golf hole.

I really liked it.  Since I haven't played Sand Hills, I cannot argue with any of Kavanaugh's selections.  I'm just pleased to see how much you guys like Riviera.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks, John.  It sure is a nice golf hole.

I really liked it.  Since I haven't played Sand Hills, I cannot argue with any of Kavanaugh's selections.  I'm just pleased to see how much you guys like Riviera.  

Mayhugh hasn't played Sand Hills.  There is a God. 

[Neil Regan]

Another view of Sand Hills 15 and 14, looking over the 14th green.. I do think playing 15 via the 14th fairway can be a good choice.

[Sean_A]

John Kirk:

Another pic of 15 green at Riv that shows the height of the back portion compared to the front:

Scott

Do you have more pix showing the entire hole?

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

I do have a couple more, I think, Sean, but they're on a store drive at home. I'll see what I have when I get back to base tomorrow night.

[Scott Szabo]

Another view of Sand Hills 15 and 14, looking over the 14th green.. I do think playing 15 via the 14th fairway can be a good choice.

So maybe your block wide right into the 14th fairway was intentional after all?  If I remember correctly you made par from over there...

[Scott Szabo]

JK,

Thanks for your insight on this thread.  I haven't played Riviera, but it has made me much more interested in watching the upcoming tournament there.  Unfortunately much of the architecture is missed by viewing it that way.

[John Kavanaugh]

I was tempted to give in and flipity flop the 16th and 17th holes so we could match par 3's against par 5's, but to no avail as it is too late to change the rules.  Interesting though to see both courses ending right, triangle that is.

The 16th at Sand Hills is as perfect a par 5 as I have ever played.  I refer you to Ran's write up as I have little to add.

The 16th at Riviera is another fine par three built on average land.  A tiny green and artistic bunkering leads to an interesting breather of a hole that may just take your breath away with a punch to the gut.

Look, maybe I mailed this one in but I got an auditor standing in my door and snow outside my window. Arg.

Match play at the 16eens.

Riviera ?

Sand Hills ?!?

Sand Hills is 2 down with two to go.  Love the three forms of II.

Please, before Thursday make your argument for the 18th at Sand Hills.  I have decided that in match play sudden death is the only option if the match finishes in a draw.

[Scott Szabo]

Maybe Neil can post some of his pictures of the 18th hole at Sand Hills.  It's a perfect ending to a great day.  I love the tee shot as it must hug the HUGE blowout to gain the most advantageous play for the second shot.  If you play too carefully away from it the second shot becomes much longer.  The green is a nasty one, with its tilt and speed.  I can't add too much to what has already been said over and over, but to me it's a wonderful hole.  

Of course Riviera has the history and magnificent clubhouse view.  But is it a better hole?  I'll leave that up to those who have played both.

As for the option if you end in a draw, how about comparing the 3s, 4s and 5s collectively against one another?  That would be interesting.

[John Kirk]

Flipping 16 and 17 would be the right thing to do, but is contrary to the rest of the exercise.

I gotta go (golfing, walking Stone Eagle today!!).  I need to call this a draw in order to continue the match, but I don't think it's going to go that way.

I'll finish up in a few hours, but tentatively, expect that Sand Hills #16 will win and close out Riviera 3 and 2.

[John Kavanaugh]

Scott,

One thing you will never see on TV is how the trees on the right side of the 18th of Riviera come into play. Which brings me to the 7th reason I prefer Riviera over Sand Hills.  Riviera is on TV every year with all the best golfers, short of one, in the world.  Remember Nicklaus or Tiger neither one ever won there.

[Eric Smith]

[Matt Bosela]

Some shots of the 18th at Sand Hills:

[Michael Moore]

Matt -

What is the small white stake in the sixth photo?

[Matt Bosela]

Matt -

What is the small white stake in the sixth photo?

Good question - it's certainly not an OB stake...perhaps it's a "no carts allowed past here" stake?  Thankfully, I was able to avoid that nasty bunker in all of my six rounds at SH last year so I wasn't in that area very often!

[Matt Bosela]

Scott,

One thing you will never see on TV is how the trees on the right side of the 18th of Riviera come into play. Which brings me to the 7th reason I prefer Riviera over Sand Hills.  Riviera is on TV every year with all the best golfers, short of one, in the world.  Remember Nicklaus or Tiger neither one ever won there.

John,

Is this what you're talking about?



I'd end up making a double from that position so I know exactly what you're talking about!

Here are a few more photos of the 18th at Riviera:

[Scott Warren]

Matt B,

Am I to assume from the pics you hit the fairway off the tee, blocked your second straight right into the trees and made double?

[John Kirk]

I took this picture of the 16th green the last time I played there, thanks to my wonderful host BG.  I'm very fond of this photo, because it shows the beauty and subtlety of the Sand Hills design.  That little 2 foot ridge/mound in front of the green guards that right pin position beautifully.  And look at how the designer gave the big hitter plenty of room right to bail right and attack that pin without having to deal with the mound.  Not only that, see how the left side of the green matches the dune slope perfectly.

Sand Hills wins 3 ad 2, becaue no matter how pretty the 16th hole at Riviera is, a 165 yard hole with a 2500 square foot green can't compete with a great par 5 such as Sand Hills #16.

[Terry Lavin]

I took this picture of the 16th green the last time I played there, thanks to my wonderful host BG.  I'm very fond of this photo, because it shows the beauty and subtlety of the Sand Hills design.  That little 2 foot ridge/mound in front of the green guards that right pin position beautifully.  And look at how the designer gave the big hitter plenty of room right to bail right and attack that pin without having to deal with the mound.  Not only that, see how the left side of the green matches the dune slope perfectly.

Sand Hills wins 3 ad 2, becaue no matter how pretty the 16th hole at Riviera is, a 165 yard hole with a 2500 square foot green can't compete with a great par 5 such as Sand Hills #16.

You had me at hello!

I just love the Riv, but there's no way that it wins in match play against Sand Hills, which is still my favorite course ever played.

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