[JC Urbina]

Mike,

Do you see the GCSAA in the same light as ASGCA?

[Bradley Anderson]

The conditions that we enjoy are because we have all worked together to improve the game. The GCSAA, the PGA, The Club Managers, the USGA, the Architects, the Builders, and the various Turf Foundations associated with the top turf schools - all working together with not that much clashing of egos for the most part. Granted there are differences and disagreements but you have that in everything.

I have been a greenkeeper for 25 years and I have never encountered a union mentality amoung my peers. When I go to the conference it is all about learning and improving my skills to do a better job. And the GCSAA has provided some really good seminars for helping us. It has always been about what is best for the game.

Bradley,
I have the utmost respect for supts....but I cannot agree that associations have improved the game...individuals do the work and the owners and clubs are the ones who put up the money to improve the game....things are changing...I have seen much union mentality when I see a young supt tell an owner that he needs to do something a specific way because it is "his reputation" (supt's) if it is done another way...the day is coming when an owner will say.."you have this many $$$ to do the job"  do it....and will not be asking for budgets.....
and yes, there is a clashing of egos within the organizations....CMAA completely stepped on the PGA and they manipulate the GCSAA....the NGCOA is for the executives of the organization more than the owners and and the architects and builders are subtly described efforts at restricting trade...bottom line is that all trade groups are a line item that every club an owner can eliminate from their budget and see no difference....

Mike,

My assistant died of pancreatic cancer and an ASSOCIATION called the Wee One, founded and run by supts. raised $30,000 to help his wife and kids. Here in Michigan our Turfgrass foundation, founded and run mostly by supts. raises the money for four graduate students to perform research at Michigan State. And we do not control what they research. They are basically working on their doctorate and they research a subject of their own interest. We raise the money through golf outings, and membership dues.

How many associations or committees have you served on Mike?

If you are not a committee kind of guy I totally respect that because I know so many guys who are wired to get the job done on their own and by their own means. But meanwhile the rest of the world has been operating fine and dandy with committees of people in cooperation with one another - THANK YOU.

[Mike_Young]

The problem is that there are too many guys in the GCSAA wearing FootJoys and not enough guys wearing Boots...

Greg,
where did you get that expression?  Think I've heard it before...

Jim,
Oh boy...we don't want to start another ASGCA discussion....
GCSAA is objective in membership...ASGCA is subjective....and I would assume most dues in ASGCA come out of the members pocket....while GCSAA dues come out of the employers pocket in most cases as well as the annual conferences....

[Bradley Anderson]

It infuriates me that we get a bunch of saber rattling whiners on here who bitch and moan about the associations, while they reap all the benefits of the hard work of those of who serve voluntarily to improve the game and the profession we love.

Wah wah wah. Its like the story of the chicken who made bread and no one wants to help make it, but they all want a piece of it. Except this group wants to bitch about how its not good enough.

If you don't like the association GET INVOLVED!

[Mike_Young]

The conditions that we enjoy are because we have all worked together to improve the game. The GCSAA, the PGA, The Club Managers, the USGA, the Architects, the Builders, and the various Turf Foundations associated with the top turf schools - all working together with not that much clashing of egos for the most part. Granted there are differences and disagreements but you have that in everything.

I have been a greenkeeper for 25 years and I have never encountered a union mentality amoung my peers. When I go to the conference it is all about learning and improving my skills to do a better job. And the GCSAA has provided some really good seminars for helping us. It has always been about what is best for the game.

Bradley,
I have the utmost respect for supts....but I cannot agree that associations have improved the game...individuals do the work and the owners and clubs are the ones who put up the money to improve the game....things are changing...I have seen much union mentality when I see a young supt tell an owner that he needs to do something a specific way because it is "his reputation" (supt's) if it is done another way...the day is coming when an owner will say.."you have this many $$$ to do the job"  do it....and will not be asking for budgets.....
and yes, there is a clashing of egos within the organizations....CMAA completely stepped on the PGA and they manipulate the GCSAA....the NGCOA is for the executives of the organization more than the owners and and the architects and builders are subtly described efforts at restricting trade...bottom line is that all trade groups are a line item that every club an owner can eliminate from their budget and see no difference....

Mike,

My assistant died of pancreatic cancer and an ASSOCIATION called the Wee One, founded and run by supts. raised $30,000 to help his wife and kids. Here in Michigan our Turfgrass foundation, founded and run mostly by supts. raises the money for four graduate students to perform research at Michigan State. And we do not control what they research. They are basically working on their doctorate and they research a subject of their own interest. We raise the money through golf outings, and membership dues.

How many associations or committees have you served on Mike?

If you are not a committee kind of guy I totally respect that because I know so many guys who are wired to get the job done on their own and by their own means. But meanwhile the rest of the world has been operating fine and dandy with committees of people in cooperation with one another - THANK YOU.

Bradley,
I am on several boards and committees presently and think that what you mention above is very admirable.......BUT that doesn't change the fact that many of these organizations are in for big changes.....you and others like you will and would do a great job at your course whether the GCSAA was there or not....it might be nice to have them and yes, you can tell me all they have done for the industry.....great....but bottom line is ...it is you that does your job and the present economy can take association cost out of their budgets....
I am on the board of our local Community foundation....they have even gone so far as to ask the board to fund the operating budget because all of the donors as instructed where their money is to be used in gifting....
These industry organizations are an industry....IMHO we can argue all day whether they are there to serve the members or the members are there to serve them....trade magazines....trade shows....dues....and how many guys do you know that have been fired from their jobs after serving as a National president or officer...and a few that were told to stop or find another job....All of the companies that serve an industry are forced to participate nor because they wish to participate but because their competitor will....
Boards such as you mention above are not trade organizations....
Cheers..

[Mike_Young]

It infuriates me that we get a bunch of saber rattling whiners on here who bitch and moan about the associations, while they reap all the benefits of the hard work of those of who serve voluntarily to improve the game and the profession we love.

Wah wah wah. Its like the story of the chicken who made bread and no one wants to help make it, but they all want a piece of it. Except this group wants to bitch about how its not good enough.

If you don't like the association GET INVOLVED!

Let's think about this....I have all due respect for people that volunteer their time for charity and I try to make an effort to do so....BUT when I VOLUNTEER I do so an an independent business person who is paying for whatever I do....I am on one VOLUNTEER board that has a few independent business people and the rest are VOLUNTEERS giving the time of their EMPLOYER....theyr are either bankers, insurance people etc but they ain't volunteering nothing....if the employer wasn't paying them to be there they would be out the door....and the employer wants them their for "added benefit" of serving the community.......
Just watch your trade associations and how they will begin to change requirements and dues etc to fit the market....first thing that happens when they know membership is in trouble....they will push the hell out of industry partners....I call BULLSHIT on volunteers in trade organizations.....somebody foots the bill....
Cheers...

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

It takes $30,000 a year to fund the research work of one graduate turf student. That money is raised largely by your local chapters of superitendents associations.

The discoveries that have been made in those plots have reduced the cost of golf and they have improved the game significantly.

Few people know the truth about what is happening behind the scenes. The insect and fungus pests are constantly evolving, and if didn't have research to deal with these issues you woldn't have healthy turf to play golf on.

Most of the extension work that turf pathologists are doing is also paid by turf foundations that are managed by the volunteer time and efforts of superintendents.

[John Kavanaugh]

Who did the research that resulted in fans being stuck on soon to be every green in the country?  Why are conditions worse now than 30 years ago?  Who decided complicated was better?  Why doesn't bacteria need an association to evolve under changing conditions?

Can you name one thing my local pro has done to increase my cost of golf. The poor bastard can't even sell a set of clubs to me anymore since  I Heart Scratch. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Who decided complicated was better?

John, not really on topic, but trust me, I ask that question every day.  No one consulted me on that one, I can tell you that!

[John Kavanaugh]

Who decided complicated was better?

John, not really on topic, but trust me, I ask that question every day.  No one consulted me on that one, I can tell you that!

Jeff,

As a member of the American Society of Professional Engineers I can tell you that people who hold positions of power always believe complicated is better.

[Bradley Anderson]

Who did the research that resulted in fans being stuck on soon to be every green in the country?  Why are conditions worse now than 30 years ago?  Who decided complicated was better?  Why doesn't bacteria need an association to evolve under changing conditions?

Can you name one thing my local pro has done to increase my cost of golf. The poor bastard can't even sell a set of clubs to me anymore since  I Heart Scratch. 

John,

What % of your club's budget goes to golf course management? You probably don't even know. You just want something to bitch about. Fans are being used very sparingly in areas that bentgrass struggles do to lack of air movement. The movement of the air over the leaf canopy allows the bent to cool itself in climates where it is on the edge of it's zone of survival.

[John Kavanaugh]

The list of courses on the Turf Breeze site questions your term sparingly.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

The other day at a meeting, I heard that the newest rage in construction is subterrain drip irrigation for bunker noses, because spraying water near bunkers makes the sand too hard (or soft depending on who you listen to).  When do we just give up and expect that from time to time, we may find a lie we don't like?  If someone figured out what their portion of the construction cost for those perfect lies was, they may opt out.

[Dave Swift]

John K.

Go away!

[PGertner]

Why are conditions worse now than 30 years ago?

John K....Really?  

Today, if I provided my members the daily conditions we provided the PGA for their major tournament 30 years ago there would be numerous complaining members about overall turf quality, height of cut, and speed of the golf course.  

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI

[Mike_Young]

Mike,

It takes $30,000 a year to fund the research work of one graduate turf student. That money is raised largely by your local chapters of superitendents associations.

The discoveries that have been made in those plots have reduced the cost of golf and they have improved the game significantly.

Few people know the truth about what is happening behind the scenes. The insect and fungus pests are constantly evolving, and if didn't have research to deal with these issues you woldn't have healthy turf to play golf on.

Most of the extension work that turf pathologists are doing is also paid by turf foundations that are managed by the volunteer time and efforts of superintendents.

Bradley,
All of that is good.
I think more money is put into these programs by the turf companies and chemical companies than Supt associations....but I admit I do not know that for a fact...just seems logical to me....for example I do know That john Deere gives/loans equipment to these programs as does Toro and the other companies plus when they fly reps/mechanics etc...it can become very expensive quickly....BUT also..I am not a big professor fan anyway...I like to watch the guys like David Stone that do their own testing on their own plots etc....as for behind the scenes stuff..I know some and don't know a lot more but I do know that the people that stand to make the profits are the ones that will spend the money....

And again..thank you for all that you and the other individual supts do for your courses and the business....I just think the Trade assoc business has gone to far....especially when I see their executives being listed as "most important people in golf"   come on....

A few years ago...I saw first hand a group of three supts come and meet with a prominent club in a large southern town that was looking for a new supt.  They asked to meet with this board and wanted to inform the board that their assoc required that any supt taking the job let the existing supt know he was looking....they were quickly asked to leave and the candidate they hired was told not to join the assoc....
It's finr to have the GCSAA just don't let the tail wag the dog....

[JMEvensky]

 When do we just give up and expect that from time to time, we may find a lie we don't like? 
 

When the maintenance budget gets slashed--like now.

[John Kavanaugh]

John K.

Go away!

I am on my way to golf and pulled over so I can safely respond. Sadly I saw a sign at a KFC advertising an All You Can Eat Buffet. I had no idea such a critter existed and must declare that this chicken is delicious.  Thank you for this opportunity I would have otherwise missed. 

[Mike_Young]

John K.

Go away!

I am on my way to golf and pulled over so I can safely respond. Sadly I saw a sign at a KFC advertising an All You Can Eat Buffet. I had no idea such a critter existed and must declare that this chicken is delicious.  Thank you for this opportunity I would have otherwise missed. 

Well you better stop at DQ and get the new pumpkin Blizzard....beats the hell out of that chicken

[Randy Thompson]

A few years ago...I saw first hand a group of three supts come and meet with a prominent club in a large southern town that was looking for a new supt.  They asked to meet with this board and wanted to inform the board that their assoc required that any supt taking the job let the existing supt know he was looking....they were quickly asked to leave and the candidate they hired was told not to join the assoc....
It's finr to have the GCSAA just don't let the tail wag the dog....  

Mike,
I am in complete agreement with GCSAA requirements of not allowing members to send a resume or interview at a club where a superintendent is currently employed. It makes perfect sence and are basic, proper buisness ethics. If a club is not happy with the suoerintendent then give him thirty days notice or fire him on the spot and then search for a new one. Ninety nine percent of the clubs follow proper ethics and fire first and look second but every once in a while there is a club that doesnīt understand basic ethic principals so GCSAA spells it out to their members that they consider this unethical. Most superintendents right fully so, would walk if they were told to stay away or not to join the GCSAA, IMO, it shows a great deal of ignorance by the club and if they have such a negative attitude in this aspect, there most likely will be a boat full of problems coming your way in others areas as well. The three that walked or were asked to leave, did the right thing regardless if its spelled out in GCSAA or not!
 
 

[Mike_Young]

A few years ago...I saw first hand a group of three supts come and meet with a prominent club in a large southern town that was looking for a new supt.  They asked to meet with this board and wanted to inform the board that their assoc required that any supt taking the job let the existing supt know he was looking....they were quickly asked to leave and the candidate they hired was told not to join the assoc....
It's finr to have the GCSAA just don't let the tail wag the dog....  

Mike,
I am in complete agreement with GCSAA requirements of not allowing members to send a resume or interview at a club where a superintendent is currently employed. It makes perfect sence and are basic, proper buisness ethics. If a club is not happy with the suoerintendent then give him thirty days notice or fire him on the spot and then search for a new one. Ninety nine percent of the clubs follow proper ethics and fire first and look second but every once in a while there is a club that doesnīt understand basic ethic principals so GCSAA spells it out to their members that they consider this unethical. Most superintendents right fully so, would walk if they were told to stay away or not to join the GCSAA, IMO, it shows a great deal of ignorance by the club and if they have such a negative attitude in this aspect, there most likely will be a boat full of problems coming your way in others areas as well. The three that walked or were asked to leave, did the right thing regardless if its spelled out in GCSAA or not!
 
 

Randy,
Read the post again....I understand what you say and agree....my point was that the club was going to hire a supt and do it the proper way but these three officers took it upon themselves to come to the club because it was a prominent club and they wished to influence the decision..going as far as to want to recommend....that takes a lot of gall....see the outgoing supt had resigned and was the club took it as these guys trying to have input into who was hired.....and that was the correct assumption....the board had no intentions of allowing this interference or forcing applicants to call the outgoing supt when they might have wanted complete discretion....

[Randy Thompson]

Mike,
I read it five times before, didnīt really understand it and still donīt but I guess my drawn conclusions are wrong and thats good. It all sounds so strange but we live in a strange world. But it sounds like a couple of Asses which there are all over (see one of the merion threads for example) and nothing to do with the association because they donīt have any such guidelines. As long as the super has resigned or been fired, the club is free to do as it wishes. Many clubs choose to advertise the position for free in a mail out that goes to Supers that pay something like ten dollars a year to see whats open around the world. The only requirement that the club has to meet is a minimum salary!

[John Gosselin]

The negative comments about the GCSAA on this sight by people who don't have a clue what the GCSAA does or is all about is sickening.

It is $300 a year for a superintendent to be a member of the GCSAA.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

The negative comments about the GCSAA on this sight by people who don't have a clue what the GCSAA does or is all about is sickening.

It is $300 a year for a superintendent to be a member of the GCSAA.

 

John,

I have attended the national GCSAA convention in Orlando.  Really enjoyed the building of a green inside the convention center.

I wouldn't poo poo $300 per year when the dues at my home course are only $480/year.  Our super isn't a member of GCSAA, but with his excellent retirement benefits from the local refinery he may reconsider assuming he has even heard of the organization.

[John Gosselin]

John K.

Victoria National is only $480 per year? Wow

Building a green on the convention room floor was a big waste of money and was not done for the benefit of superintendents. I am glad my dues don’t go towards such things. If a superintendent needs to learn about various ways of building greens he can visit his/her fellow GCSAA superintendents who have gone through the process or who are going through the process to do their research, so they will be able to protect their owners investment.

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