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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2014, 03:22:09 PM »
Adam,

I was waiting for someone to pick me up on that!

I got it from Adrian - except he dates it 10 years too EARLY

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49042.msg1108076.html#msg1108076

« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 03:27:26 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2014, 04:10:40 PM »
Duncan - That database has the date the club was formed. The architect is just the one that I found from another source, some clubs/courses, got moved or radically altered... I think I have a Donald Steel one from 1887!
I dont have Colt as the architect for Trafford Park though...it is blank...was Trafford Park originally Manchester?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2014, 04:26:43 PM »
Ah, that probably explains it then.

Manchester Golf Club was founded in 1882 in Manley Park and moved to Trafford Park in 1892. Your listing of Colt led me to believe that he had been involved at that time.

The club subsequently moved again to Hopwood in 1912 and commissioned Colt to design the new course.

I'm playing Hopwood for the first time tomorrow and hope to post a photo-tour of a course held in high esteem locally but almost totally ignored nationally.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2014, 04:28:36 PM »
I wonder who did design the Trafford Park course? Darwin was indeed quite complimentary about it, in a way he wasn't often about 1890s courses.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2014, 04:38:36 PM »
Did anyone really 'design' golf courses prior to about 1900? I always kind of assumed that they were laid out almost at random by the founders of the club in question until the profession of golf course architect came into existence with Colt, Fowler, Park et al.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 04:40:20 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2014, 04:48:59 PM »
Varied I think. Certainly things were more flexible in those days, and the designers weren't spending months on a project, but at the same time I don't think it was quite as ad hoc as your description suggests, or not always anyway. To take one good example, Tom Dunn's 1893 routing for Woking survives largely intact, or rather the original course that was actually played does (the first plans of the Woking course show holes on the other side of Pond Road, but there's no evidence they were ever built).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2014, 05:05:47 PM »
I should post a list of all the clubs in the UK that I have no architect for? I think I should do it County by County.

Duncan - I 'think' what tended to happen was a group of golfers decide they had some land and wanted to form a course nearer to them and they hired someone for a day. There are plenty of pre 1900 courses that still generally have the hand of the original. There are plenty of Tom Morris', Willie Parks, Charlie Hunter did a few, The Dunnes.

Courses were shorter pre 1900, some only 9 holes so with the expansion of the game, there were changes made to courses by the Vardons, Taylors and Braids and Harry Colt. Adding a block of land of 20-30 acres for 4 or 5 new holes sometimes means significant changes for 9 or more holes, so I suspect thats how those names tended to get added as they sort of did the major work.

I have made some additions to some courses. I added 4 new holes at Wells in a new block of land (those holes were clearly mine) I abandoned a couple of short holes and combined them with another so perhaps 7 were mine. Hawtree is the name that did the original. The committee did a few holes early 70s, so I reckon only the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 10th, 17th and 18th are Hawtree's and two of those greens have been moved and the 17th was scheduled for a rebuild. The club produced its history about 10 or so years ago and yet there is no mention of my work or any architect other than Hawtrees doing the original course. Some clubs just dont care. It is a problem to know who designed what even in today's age, I reckon its about 40% mine and certainly dont claim it as a course, but it is really hard to know who did what at most UK courses because almost all of them have been to the doctors a couple of times.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2014, 07:20:13 AM »
Did anyone really 'design' golf courses prior to about 1900? I always kind of assumed that they were laid out almost at random by the founders of the club in question until the profession of golf course architect came into existence with Colt, Fowler, Park et al.

Duncan

Consider yourself very lucky that Melvyn no longer posts on here !

No doubt golf course architecture moved on as golf moved into the 20th century however that's not to say that pre 1900 they didn't design with certain objectives and principles in mind, some of which carried over to the golden age boys.

For instance MacKenzie talked of leaving room to extend holes by taking the tee back which is something he could have copied from Old Tom.

Niall

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2014, 07:36:34 AM »
Did anyone really 'design' golf courses prior to about 1900? I always kind of assumed that they were laid out almost at random by the founders of the club in question until the profession of golf course architect came into existence with Colt, Fowler, Park et al.

Duncan

Consider yourself very lucky that Melvyn no longer posts on here !

No doubt golf course architecture moved on as golf moved into the 20th century however that's not to say that pre 1900 they didn't design with certain objectives and principles in mind, some of which carried over to the golden age boys.

For instance MacKenzie talked of leaving room to extend holes by taking the tee back which is something he could have copied from Old Tom.

Niall


Melvyn set out some of his views here.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/the-early-golf-designers-the-real-golden-age-by-melvyn-hunter-morrow/

This was followed up a few months later by the late Tom MacWood

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/in-my-opinion-the-early-architects-beyond-old-tom-by-tom-macwood/

There was also some lively threads following each.

Safe to say that it is wrong to simply state that all courses were laid out on the “18 stakes on a Sunday” basis, prior to 1900.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2014, 01:02:15 PM »

Duncan

Consider yourself very lucky that Melvyn no longer posts on here !


Funnily enough Melvyn and I have been carrying on a very helpful email correspondence over the last couple of days stemming from this thread.  He hasn't picked me up on those comments which were not entirely serious.

Interesting that Melvyn is obviously still an active lurker...



...take care what you say, boys!  :D

« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 01:04:24 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Mark Pearce

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2014, 01:39:51 PM »
As always Melvyn has been incredibly generous with information.  I received a number of newspaper articles regarding Lothianburn.
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2014, 07:17:43 AM »
I wonder who did design the Trafford Park course? Darwin was indeed quite complimentary about it, in a way he wasn't often about 1890s courses.

It looks like it was George Lowe, the pro at St Annes (Royal Lytham) who laid out the Trafford Park course.





Thanks to Melvyn You-Know-Who for sending me those from the Manchester Courier of 15.2.1898

Lowe has some impressive courses to his name, notably Royals Lytham and Birkdale, but he appears little remembered outside the North-West.

http://www.eigca.org/article/eigca11147.ink




« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 07:23:45 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2014, 12:28:41 PM »
And most clubs founded in the north-west in the 1880s and 90s adopted the rules of Royal Lytham as well as inviting its professional to lay out a course for them. Most were called 'links' even though there soil was anything but.

Thanks for dragging this to the top. I'm grateful for Adrian's new posts.

Sean_A

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #88 on: January 05, 2014, 07:07:03 AM »
Ah, that probably explains it then.

Manchester Golf Club was founded in 1882 in Manley Park and moved to Trafford Park in 1892. Your listing of Colt led me to believe that he had been involved at that time.

The club subsequently moved again to Hopwood in 1912 and commissioned Colt to design the new course.

I'm playing Hopwood for the first time tomorrow and hope to post a photo-tour of a course held in high esteem locally but almost totally ignored nationally.

Duncan

I've been meaning to make it up to Machester for a good few years.  Where is that tour?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022:

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2014, 12:58:44 PM »

Duncan

I've been meaning to make it up to Machester for a good few years.  Where is that tour?

Ciao

On hold, I'm afraid.

I played Hopwood on Thursday on a bright winter's day with high hopes of getting some great pics; unfortunately following torrential rain over the previous few days the greens were waterlogged and we were on temps. The wisdom of this decision was brought home to me on one hole when my errant pitch landed on the green proper - and promptly disappeared an inch undergound!

Hopwood really impressed me though, and I can't wait to return in more favourable condituions. If you can imagine Cavendish on steroids you will get an idea of what to expect. The moorland terrain is very similar but the scale is immense - rarely do you even see more than one hole at a time as the course weaves its way across a full 250 acres. The only minus points to my mind were too many blind tee-shots and one incredibly artificial short hole green site.

The whole set-up at Hopwood oozes quality, but is obviously under-appreciated. Current green fees are £20 or £70 for a four-ball!

Name the date and I'll meet you there!

« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 01:01:21 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Jon Wiggett

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Re: UK courses no longer in existence
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2014, 01:54:23 PM »
Its been a few years since I played Hopwood but I recall it as being a challenging course especially in a stiff breeze as it is quite exposed. I would think it is well worth driving out of your way to play.

Jon

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