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Adrian_Stiff

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The Golf Courses of Angus
« on: January 04, 2014, 10:44:34 AM »
1   CARNOUSTIE   54   7361   72   1842   Alan Robertson re:Tom Morris re: James Braid re: James Wright
2   DOWNFIELD   18   6822   72   1932   James Braid ; re Jack Scrimgeour and Les Wright
3   MONTROSE MEDAL   36   6544   72   1562   Willie Park (1903)
4   PANMURE   18   6317   70   1845   Alan Robertson : re James Braid & Alexander Pirie
5   MONIFIETH MEDAL   36   6650   72      Alan Robertson & Alexander Pirie re: Tom Morris
6   CARNOUSTIE BURNSIDE   54   6020   69   1914   re: Robert Simpson sub-red J P Bruce & Willie Park jnr
7   LETHAM GRANGE OLD   36   6968   73   1987   Steel / Smith
8   EDZELL   27   6367   71   1895   Bob Simpson re: James Braid
9   FORFAR   18   6066   69   1871   Tom Morris / James Braid
10   CAIRD PARK   36   6303   70   1926   Harry Colt
11   BRECHIN   18   6200   70   1893   James Braid
12   CARNOUSTIE BUDDON   54   5420   66   1981   Peter Alliss
13   CAMPERDOWN   18   6561   72   1960   Eric Brown
14   ARBROATH ARTISAN   18   6185   70   1903   Tom Morris re: James Braid
15   KIRRIEMUIR   18   5510   67   1884   James Braid
15   LETHAM GRANGE GLENS   36   5528   68      Tom MacAuley
17   MONIFIETH ASHLUDIE   36   5123   66      
18   MONTROSE BROOMFIELD   36   4830   63      
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 07:41:11 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Thomas Dai

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2014, 11:19:46 AM »
Arbroath - originally a Tom Morris lay out but I believe updated by James Braid later on (1920s?). Sometimes known as Arbroath-Elliot. I believe the links are owned by the local authority and played on by Arbroath Artisans. Confusing? Yip! Nice course to play though, worth stopping at on the way north from Carnoustie to Montrose/Aberdeen/Cruden Bay.

Edzell - the original course was renovated later on (1920's?) by James Braid. The 9-holer was added in the early 00's, not sure who by.

ATB





David_Tepper

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2014, 11:24:15 AM »
Again referring to the Sunday Times GCG to B&I:

Edzell, Bob Simpson
Brechin, James Braid
Camperdown, Eric Brown
Arbroath, James Braid

 

Brian_Ewen

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2014, 08:40:55 PM »
Whats left of the original Brechin course is Braid.

Edzell is Bob Simpson, with some re-design work by James Briad, which is now in the process of being destroyed by Mackenzie & Ebert.

We have proved Caird Park is  a Colt, in the past ?

Niall C

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2014, 07:14:27 AM »
Brian

Pretty sure we nailed Caird as a Colt. FBD is the man to confirm.

Adrian

Had a look last night at The Carnoustie Story by Donald Ford (ex-pro footballer with Hearts and now a photographer) who is a local boy.He's clearly done a fair bit of research and this is what he has to say about the various courses. (edit - the book is an excellent read if you can get ahold of it)

Championship Course

1840 - Allan Robertson lays out first formal course that comprises 10 holes using double greens in the St Andrews fashion.

1872 - Old Tom called in to consult and he substantially redesigns course to 18 holes (4,565 yds)

1884 - 1895 - Robert Simpson taken on as greenkeeper in 1884 and quits c.1895 (not sure about this date, this is from memory) and during his tenure he makes various modifications (not specified)

1894 - Old Tom brought back to "stiffen up" Championship Course. No detail as to what was done but in 1897 the course measured 6,082 yds)

1926 - James Braid brought in and he substantially redesigns the course taking in new ground (Stutt did the work)

1930 - following Scottish (?) Championship played over the course, James Wright, Captain of the Dalhousie Club that has stewardship of the course at that time, persuades his Committee that the finish is too soft and needs toughened up. Consequently the last 4 holes were totally redesigned. The suggestion is that Wright came up with the changes and that what we play now is what he designed.

1930-1936 - from my own research Wright writes to Aberdeen Journal in response to reported criticism from Tom Simpson on Carnoustie's suitability to stage the Open, and suggests that Simpson hasn't looked at Carnoustie recently so is in no position to judge and that c.60 bunkers have been closed up since 1930. This is possibly a reaction to Braids bunkering scheme and suggests he was a bit heavy handed in dishing out the sand (as he was at Troon when preparing it for the Open in 1923). Interestingly the website of the Tom Simpson Society has it that Simpson redesigned 6th and 13th at least and that Simpson mentioned this in correspondence to Captain of Liphook in 1959.

1985 - 200? - John Philp taken on as head greenkeeper with task of getting course back up to scratch with view to holding the Open. Following the 1999 Open myself and a group of fellow gca students were given a tour of the links by Philps and it was clear that quite a few changes had been made, some of them aesthetic but not always. Changes like mounding round the back of 1st and 3rd greens, raising approach to 15th and putting in mounding to surrounds to create almost a punchbowl type green. He also brought the burn up the right of the 6th into play more and put mounding on the far side of it to try and force players to go down Hogan's alley. Subsequent to that visit and prior to the next Open at Carnoustie that Harrington won, the 3rd fairway got the dunification treatment. There may have been other changes but I can't recall. It may well be that there was some committee/R&A sponsored architect behind some or all of these changes but I wouldn't bet on it. John Philps struck me as a man with strong views on what he wanted and he by several accounts he was given a fairly free hand to achieve it.

Comments on the Burnside and Buddon to follow.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2014, 07:27:29 AM »
Cheers Everyone, we are making a lot of progress and filling the gaps. Melvyn is also helping a lot and following these threads and is helping filling the gaps, so big thanks to Mr MM.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 07:29:15 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2014, 07:29:13 AM »
Burnside, Carnoustie

1892 - Robert Simpson lays out 9 hole course that was referred to then as Auxilliary course.

1894 - Old Tom makes some modifications such as moving first tee, presumably to accommodate his redesign of Championship course (that's my assumption).

1914 - course extended to 18 holes in accordance with plan by J.P. Bruce who was a member of Dalhousie (?) Club. The Ford book credits Willie Park Jnr as overseeing the construction of the bunkers which I presume means he basically designed and built green complexes and did other "featuring" of the course.
 
1934/35 - course substantially redesigned including 42 new tees, 14 new greens and 36 new bunkers, and lengthened to c.6,000 yards. Ford makes no mention of who designed the work but does suggest that what we play now is the basically the same course. At that time the course name was changed to The Burnside.

Buddon, Carnoustie

1974 - 1981 - Peter Allis/Dave Thomas called in to design 18 holes on practice ground where 6 practice holes already existed. For various reasons the course didn't open until 1981.

Ford credits Philp with making extensive alterations to course but doesn't detail what those changes were.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2014, 07:35:52 AM »
Letham Grange : Are these NLE?  I see to recall something.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2014, 08:01:49 AM »
Burnside, Carnoustie

Just done a quick newspaper search and the 1934/35 changes to the Burnside were credited at the time to Mr James Wright and Mr R.R. Webster Baillie.

Niall

Marty Bonnar

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2014, 08:21:18 AM »
Gents,
Caird defo a Colt.
Letham Grange still operating - just.
There's also 27 holes at Piperdam and 9 holes at Guthrie Castle for guests.
F.
Assembled in Michigan from foreign parts.

Niall C

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 08:26:29 AM »
Burnside, Carnoustie

Just done a quick newspaper search and the 1934/35 changes to the Burnside were credited at the time to Mr James Wright and Mr R.R. Webster Baillie.

Niall

The same newspaper search also brought up that 50 holes closed on Championship (or Medal course as it was then referred to) in previous few years but that several were being made at around 280 yards mark on certain holes ahead of 1936 (?) Open. Another substantive change at that time was to scoop away some of the approach to the first green which prior to that was completely blind. The reason given that this would be a better hole for deciding any matches requiring to go up the 19th.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: The Golf Courses of Angus
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 01:52:18 PM »
Adrian

Panmure

The Panmure club started out playing on Monifieth links and in 1848 got Allan Robertson and Alexander Pirie (according to Monifieth strokesaver) to lay out 9 holes. The course was later modified and lengthened (1880 ?) which presumably was Old Tom (the strokesaver doesn't say) and when other clubs started using the links, the Panmure club negotiated their own exclusive use of nearby ground and in 1898 the Panmure course was laid out (no idea who the architect was but it clearly wasn't Allan Robertson). Therefore the Monifieth medal course should be the one credited to Robertson/Pirie. I also recall the Monifieth medal was substantially altered after WW1 and the Ashludie created. Don't have my notes to hand but have vague recollection it was Willie Park.

With regards the Panmure course, the clubs website credits Braid with making changes in the early 1920's.

Niall

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