[John Kavanaugh]

If I were Lester I wouldn't worry about that, John. I don't recall any threads on here where folks were claiming that Old Mac was ripping off Black Creek.

No, the Donald Ross Society did that dirty work.  I trust Lester knows what he has gotten himself into here.  Golf assassins rarely use the front door.

Black Creek never received the critical acclaim it deserved, wonder why?

[JC Jones]

If I were Lester I wouldn't worry about that, John. I don't recall any threads on here where folks were claiming that Old Mac was ripping off Black Creek.

No, the Donald Ross Society did that dirty work.  I trust Lester knows what he has gotten himself into here.  Golf assassins rarely use the front door.

Black Creek never received the critical acclaim it deserved, wonder why?

3 things it didn't have:
1.  Tom Doak
2.  The editor of the rankings for a major golf publication on its "design team"
3.  Three other courses of critical acclaim on the same property

[John Kavanaugh]

If I were Lester I wouldn't worry about that, John. I don't recall any threads on here where folks were claiming that Old Mac was ripping off Black Creek.

No, the Donald Ross Society did that dirty work.  I trust Lester knows what he has gotten himself into here.  Golf assassins rarely use the front door.

Black Creek never received the critical acclaim it deserved, wonder why?

3 things it didn't have:
1.  Tom Doak
2.  The editor of the rankings for a major golf publication on its "design team"
3.  Three other courses of critical acclaim on the same property

JC,

That is all a load of crap.  Silva is a fine architect, Chattanooga is a world class golf town with a Raynor on the hill and I can't find my ten foot pole.

[Eric Smith]

Ron Garl built replica holes at Golden Ocala in 1986. Wooden Sticks did it and won Best New in Canada. Then Tour 18 launched in two locations. Then International World Tour, Renditions: Golf's Grand slam Experience, Royal Links, The Tribute, etc.

These things work in cycles I think.

[JC Jones]

If I were Lester I wouldn't worry about that, John. I don't recall any threads on here where folks were claiming that Old Mac was ripping off Black Creek.

No, the Donald Ross Society did that dirty work.  I trust Lester knows what he has gotten himself into here.  Golf assassins rarely use the front door.

Black Creek never received the critical acclaim it deserved, wonder why?

3 things it didn't have:
1.  Tom Doak
2.  The editor of the rankings for a major golf publication on its "design team"
3.  Three other courses of critical acclaim on the same property

JC,

That is all a load of crap.  Silva is a fine architect, Chattanooga is a world class golf town with a Raynor on the hill and I can't find my ten foot pole.

Maybe if you'd stop beating around the bush you'd be able to find that pole.

And I didn't say anything about Doak's architectural abilities vs Silva's.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think Old Mac is overrated, I believe Black Creek is underrated and I haven't played either course.  

[JC Jones]

I don't think Old Mac is overrated, I believe Black Creek is underrated and I haven't played either course.  

Who said Old Mac was overrated?

[Bruce Wellmon]

It's official. IMO, We have run out of names for golf clubs/courses.
What's the logo?
Let's start a contest to rename this before it's too late.

But, I did join a course named Thundergust. Alas, it was never built.

[Tim Bert]

It's official. IMO, We have run out of names for golf clubs/courses.
What's the logo?
Let's start a contest to rename this before it's too late.

But, I did join a course named Thundergust. Alas, it was never built.

You didn't realize this when they followed up Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, and Bandon Trails with Old Macdonald?

Perhaps all CBM inspired courses need an uninspiring name as the true barometer for their greatness.  I think Contentment is destined for greatness before the construction ever begins.

[Eric Smith]

What's the logo?

I think it is a rocking chair.

[John Kavanaugh]

I still remember the day poor ole Lester got beat up over Ballyhack.  Since he can't seem to cut a break I would like to say he is particularly good looking as far as golf architects go.  The good news is that I'm getting ready to hit the road and won't be posting for a few days.  Sorry, no, I'm not taking JC with me.

[JC Jones]

I still remember the day poor ole Lester got beat up over Ballyhack.  Since he can't seem to cut a break I would like to say he is particularly good looking as far as golf architects go.  The good news is that I'm getting ready to hit the road and won't be posting for a few days.  Sorry, no, I'm not taking JC with me.

Only because I said no.

[Bruce Wellmon]

What's the logo?

I think it is a rocking chair.

Actually, I like the rocking chair logo. Good choice for the NC mountians.
I have no doubt it will be a great course.
I was less than impressed with the name. But I like the new logo.

[Brian Marion]

What's the logo?

I think it is a rocking chair.

Actually, I like the rocking chair logo. Good choice for the NC mountians.
I have no doubt it will be a great course.
I was less than impressed with the name. But I like the new logo.

Actually, for that area of the state, you need a coon dog sleeping and pint jar of fine white lightning sitting next to the chair!

[Ben Sims]

What is Lester supposed to do, refuse work because he doesn't like the idea?  That said, I think that template holes are the "buzz" right now.  Old Mac didn't open the can of beans here, it just put them on a plate and gave us a spoon.

I wish this owner/developer would let Lester and his guys bring their full arsenal to bear on his piece of land, not someone else's.  I have a  friend that has mentioned that many of these modern archies are better than the golden age guys.  Why do they want to copy them?

It also makes me wonder.  In 80 years will someone have named some of the great holes that have been built in the last 15 years and call them a template or tribute?  Maybe I can make a living building Nuzzo "sting ray" greens in 2040.

[JC Jones]

If the logo were to be a rocking chair with a coon dog sleeping at the foot and a mason jar on the arm rest, it would be top 10 logos in America.

[Bruce Wellmon]

If the logo were to be a rocking chair with a coon dog sleeping at the foot and a mason jar on the arm rest, it would be top 10 logos in America.

Now we're talking.
We should get paid for these ideas. Some consultant just stole this. Can we copyright it?

[Lester George]

Gentlemen,

Just for the record, I started working on Contentment in 2006.  When approached, the owner wanted a "Seth Raynor, C.B. Macdonald type" course. 

We had just finished the four year restoration of the Old White and previously restored Cavalier Golf and Yacht Club(Banks).  The owner interviewed (if my memoy serves me) 8 or 9 other architects, including some who post here.  I mention this because some are speculating who we might be mimicking.  We are mimicking Seth Raynor/C.B. Macdonald.  I am not sure when Black Creek was done but I am pretty sure Old Mac wasn't even started.  To say that we would copy them is incorrect.

Having said that, the owner has giving us unlimited opportunity to create holes we think are best for the site within a few simple criteria.  He wants to make sure the holes aren't forced into the land, he wants variety in startegy, he wants the course to fun to play, and he wants the tenets of a SR-CBM golf course.

In that regard we have had a free discussion of different types and arrangements of some of our (collective) favorite holes.  We have never been throttled with creating exact replicas.  It sounds like that is the way Old Mac went to me.  No we have not considered involving book authors or magazine editors but we have made them aware of the project because they frequently ask what we are working on. 

I will try to post some pictures of the site which I believe is extraordinary.

Lester

[JC Jones]

Gentlemen,

Just for the record, I started working on Contentment in 2006.  When approached, the owner wanted a "Seth Raynor, C.B. Macdonald type" course. 

We had just finished the four year restoration of the Old White and previously restored Cavalier Golf and Yacht Club(Banks).  The owner interviewed (if my memoy serves me) 8 or 9 other architects, including some who post here.  I mention this because some are speculating who we might be mimicking.  We are mimicking Seth Raynor/C.B. Macdonald.  I am not sure when Black Creek was done but I am pretty sure Old Mac wasn't even started.  To say that we would copy them is incorrect.

Having said that, the owner has giving us unlimited opportunity to create holes we think are best for the site within a few simple criteria.  He wants to make sure the holes aren't forced into the land, he wants variety in startegy, he wants the course to fun to play, and he wants the tenets of a SR-CBM golf course.

In that regard we have had a free discussion of different types and arrangements of some of our (collective) favorite holes.  We have never been throttled with creating exact replicas.  It sounds like that is the way Old Mac went to me.  No we have not considered involving book authors or magazine editors but we have made them aware of the project because they frequently ask what we are working on. 

I will try to post some pictures of the site which I believe is extraordinary.

Lester

Sounds great, Lester.  I really look forward to the project.  What are your general thoughts towards trespassers during the construction phase?

[Lester George]

JC,

Stay in touch, we may put you to work clearing briars! 

Lester

[JC Jones]

JC,

Stay in touch, we may put you to work clearing briars! 

Lester

Consider my offer extended.

[John Mayhugh]

My question was towards your "template" question.  Following your questions, isn't then Old Mac a template of Silva's Black Creek?  How do we determine if one is a template of another?  Chronological order?

You might start by trying to understand what the designer's goals were.  Templates are patterns used for ensuring consistent copies.  I don't think that term applies to what is on the ground at either Black Creek or Old Macdonald. 

They certainly aren't replica courses like the ones Eric mentioned. 


John K
What do you mean when you say that "the Donald Ross Society did that dirty work?"

[John Kavanaugh]

John K
What do you mean when you say that "the Donald Ross Society did that dirty work?"

John,

Please read this article from the year Black Creek was being built and draw your own conclusions:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1016180/index.htm

[JC Jones]

My question was towards your "template" question.  Following your questions, isn't then Old Mac a template of Silva's Black Creek?  How do we determine if one is a template of another?  Chronological order?

You might start by trying to understand what the designer's goals were.  Templates are patterns used for ensuring consistent copies.  I don't think that term applies to what is on the ground at either Black Creek or Old Macdonald. 

They certainly aren't replica courses like the ones Eric mentioned. 

John,

Politely:  I think you missed the context of my questions.  They were not questions I had, but rather questions that would arise following the logic behind the "template" question.

Mayhugh style: you might want to read the whole thread before isolating my comments, you damn fool.

[Lester George]

Someone please remind me how to post pictures.  Please keep it simple!

Lester

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