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TEPaul

By the way, is it really any wonder that place was surrounded by a military base and eventually taken over by the US Government? ;)

Also, the works of the Rockefeller family with things like Caneel Bay, Williamsburg, and a whole host of others basically fell under the label of "Rock Resorts" eventually and were, I believe, inspired originally by John D. Rockefeller JR's lifelong ambition to rehabilitate the name and reputation of his father, the creator of it all, John D. Rockefeller, who for most of the latter half of his life just may've been the most hated man in the world!

I would say JDR JR did a pretty damn good job with his lifelong ambition, wouldn't you?!

PCCraig

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Chris:

Sorry if I missed this in your first post, but where exactly is this in relation to Pinehurst? I was looking for it on Google Maps with no luck. I was just curious to see how far away it was from everything else in the area.

Thanks.
H.P.S.

Chris Buie

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Mr. Paul, that is interesting information.  There is a lot of interesting activity that goes on in various places to this day.  There are some people around that have resumes that read like fiction.  
Yes, I considered including a bit more about the side of Overhills that you are referring to.  I decided to just leave a few bread crumbs.  I enjoy the local color and adjunct stories that go along with the extra-ordinary places we discuss here.  I try to include only a judicious amount on my threads.  It can be overdone.  Considering the purpose of this website I try to make the golf course aspect the primary thing but will toss in a few piquant spices from time to time.

Back to Mr. Paul's topic.  I'll try to keep this very short.  Guys like Harriman, Chip Bohlen (Porcellian) and George Kennan were essentially very honorable men who could have been dilettantes but instead served the country very well.  I would say that although there were questionable elements, that to read this group as being sinister and of self interest is not accurate.  It was a very volatile time that could have spun off in a catastrophic direction had they not been so savvy and innovative in dealing with provocative and dangerous subjects.  Let's hope their contemporary iterations do as well as these guys did.

Pat, try the link below.  If that doesn't work type  - Thurman Dr. Spring Lake NC - into Google and you will see the course just on the left.  You can zoom out to see where it is in relation to Pinehurst.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&expIds=17259,26637,26992,27139&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=thurman+dr+spring+lake+nc&cp=25&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Thurman+Dr,+Cameron,+NC+28326&gl=us&ei=wKy9TJHZDcK78gaC1q36Bg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ8gEwAA
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 07:37:18 AM by Chris Buie »

Dean DiBerardino

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Chris:

Sorry if I missed this in your first post, but where exactly is this in relation to Pinehurst? I was looking for it on Google Maps with no luck. I was just curious to see how far away it was from everything else in the area.

Thanks.

Chris:

Thanks for all of the interesting info about Overhills.  I had a friend in Pinehurst when I lived there who was in the military and once told me about the golf course.  He offered to take me out and see the property and I regret that I didn't take him up on the offer.

Pat:

Check out the image below of Overhills in relation to Fort Bragg and Fayetteville.  Hope it helps.  :)



« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 11:03:25 AM by Dean DiBerardino »

Craig Disher

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TEP,
That's another amazing story. Percy Rockefeller, JDR's nephew, was one of the original owners - primary Rockefeller ownership dated from the early 1920s - and after he died in the 1934 the Rockefeller majority ownership passed to his children and Avery, his son, became the manager. The material on the Ft. Bragg website shows a page from the 1933 guestbook - JDR III and wife are listed. If the AAMMO had any connection to Overhills, it might have been through Harriman who had built a cottage on the site early on. By the 1930s, it had become purely a Rockefeller property, perhaps similar to Pocantico Hills - primarily a family retreat with one branch taking main responsibility for running it.

The Ross golf course was planned as early as 1913. The drawing that Chris posted from 1916 is almost the same as one from 1913 which also shows a rough routing for 18 holes. It's interesting that one of the original owners of Overhills was Leonard Tufts. Perhaps he was the connection to Ross.





TEPaul

"TEP,
That's another amazing story."


Craig:

Yeah, I suppose it could be; maybe a bit too amazing for some.  ;) I'll send you a link to the book. Read it, I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say about some of the material in it which seems to have been classified for quite some time.

Anyway, back to golf course architecture.

Mike Sweeney

By the way, is it really any wonder that place was surrounded by a military base and eventually taken over by the US Government? ;)

Also, the works of the Rockefeller family with things like Caneel Bay, Williamsburg, and a whole host of others basically fell under the label of "Rock Resorts" eventually and were, I believe, inspired originally by John D. Rockefeller JR's lifelong ambition to rehabilitate the name and reputation of his father, the creator of it all, John D. Rockefeller, who for most of the latter half of his life just may've been the most hated man in the world!

I would say JDR JR did a pretty damn good job with his lifelong ambition, wouldn't you?!

Tom,

Never understood that connection till your post. From Rock Resorts:

The RockResorts brand was originally created in 1956 by Laurance Rockefeller, with the development of Caneel Bay on St. John in the U.S. Virgin Islands. Other resorts formerly branded under the RockResorts identity include Little Dix on Virgin Gorda; The Lodge at Koele, Manele Bay on the Hawaiian island of Lanai; The Mauna Kea on the Big Island; Kapalua Bay Hotel on Maui; The Hyatt Dorado Beach, Cerromar Beach in Puerto Rico; The Woodstock Inn in Vermont; and the Grand Teton Lodge Company in Wyoming.

The Rockefeller family sold the brand to CSX Corp. in 1986. CSX subsequently sold the brand to VMS Realty in 1989.  The properties were sold off and the brand remained dormant until its purchase by Olympus Hospitality in 1999.  Olympus then rebuilt the brand with five resort hotels: Cheeca Lodge & Spa, The Equinox Resort & Spa, La Posada de Santa Fe, Rosario Resort & Spa, and Casa Madrona Hotel & Spa.  When Vail Resorts acquired a majority interest in December 2001, five additional luxury properties were added to the RockResorts brand: The Lodge at Vail, Snake River Lodge & Spa, The Pines Lodge, Keystone Lodge, and The Lodge at Rancho Mirage. On May 3, 2005, The Lodge & Spa at Cordillera, a AAA Four Diamond Award-winning resort located in Colorado's Vail Valley, was added to RockResorts' collection of luxury resort destinations.



So the question is, why was Overhills different and NOT part of Rock Resorts?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 11:48:45 PM by Mike Sweeney »

TEPaul

"So the question is, why was Overhills different and NOT part of Rock Resorts?"


Mike:


To answer that I'd say we need to remember that the Rockefeller family was one of the wealthiest and most powerful families in American history and they had a whole lot going on throughout the family branches and generations.

Percy Rockefeller who apparently started Overhills was the nephew of John D. Rockefeller who is generally referred to as "Senior." As you know JDR was the primary partner of Standard Oil, one of the largest corporations in early American business history. Some of his partners in Standard Oil or the financiers of the company read like a Who's Who of the Industrial Revolution and the late 19th and early 20th century business engine of America. One was Henry Flager who ended up owning a swath of the entire East Coast of Florida through his creation of the Florida East Coast Railroad and the opening up of Florida from Jacksonville to Key West.

In the second and third generations of families like that most all went to Harvard, Yale and Princeton and the rest of the so-called Ivy League colleges and from there they began to inter-marry and get into all kinds of business connections that included the primary avenues of finance, oil, railroads and many of the raw matters they carried, as well as high-level state and national politics and certainly including very high-level international diplomacy for some. Another of those families was Harriman. Averell Harriman was the son of E.H. Harriman who controlled the Union Pacific Railroad and who was arguably one of the richest men in America. Averell's avenue was finance (Brown Brothers, Harriman) and politics and international diplomacy.

These guys were the early 20th century American titans, and their business and social and family lives became remarkably connected and intertwinned. One of the places one finds those remarkable business, social and family connections today is in the histories of some of the most significant American golf clubs, particularly the likes of NGLA, The Creek, Piping Rock, and other similiar clubs around the country.

One of the things many of those hugely powerful families did in the latter half of the 19th century and in the beginning of the 20th century is buy up huge parcels of land throughout the south and the west.

Overhills was obvioiusly just one of many of those massive land holdings of those interconnected families that was originally used for personal and family reasons that lapped into places for all to get together for their favorite recreations, golf, polo, fox hunting, bird shooting etc and to talk over the things that interested those people which arguably included controlling or having a hand in what went on in business and politics and diplomacy all over the world.

If one were to do a business and family and social TREE of who these people were and how interconnected they were I feel it would be a real eye-opener to those on this site and it could even be stretched to include the clubs (including golf clubs) so many of them belonged to together.

I should note that between about 1837 and 1913 the United States did not have a central bank and essentially these were the people who stepped into that void and financed the burgeoning American nation and took control of many of its most essential goods and services (oil, raw materials, manufacturing, the railroads to transport them, banking and financial institutions and land---both private and resort!

RockResorts came later and I think that was just one of the interests of Laurence Rockefeller whose life was dedicated to venture capitalism, conservation of land and such. It may've been one of the later entities of what is known as The Rockefeller Brothers Trust (distinct from the Rockefeller Foundation) that was formed in 1940 by JDR's grandchildren (John, Nelson, Winthrop, Laurence and David).

Actually, a very good friend of my father's, Aldie Boyer, ran RockResorts and if I remember correctly he went to work in Rockefeller Center in mid-town Manhattan.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 07:39:47 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Did Tufts commission Ross to design the golf course?

Craig Disher

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Did Tufts commission Ross to design the golf course?

That's an interesting question. The answer might be somewhere in the Tufts Archives in Pinehurst; I'll stop by there next week and look around.

Chris Buie

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Hi Tom.  I'm not sure if Tufts directly commissioned Ross to design the course.  Like Craig said perhaps there is a dusty note in the files of the basement of the Tufts Archives that has the answer to that question.  Maybe I'll ask that bright and congenial Audrey Moriarty over there about that.  

Craig was correct earlier about Leonard Tufts being one of the original owners.  He was the son of the founder of Pinehurst - James Walker Tufts.
In the original post I said there was much more to the story.  That was an understatement.  Before the land was bought by the Rockefellers et al. it went through other incarnations.  One was a hunting club called The Croatan.  Next to the Croatan was another hunting club owned by yet another titan:  R.J. Reynolds.  His estate was called Buckthorne Lodge.  Buckthorne ended up being absorbed into what later became Overhills.
Regarding Leonard's role at what was called Croatan at the time:

"Tufts, who managed a 40,000 acre shooting preserve in Pinehurst, apparently entertained the notion of connecting Croatan Club with Pinehurst and developing a game preserve and resort. His commitment was fleeting however, as he sold his interest only two months following his and Jordan’s acquisition proposal to the Croatan Club. Tufts was quickly replaced by William Kent, at the time a newly elected California congressman."
So a seemingly endless series of configurations took place among parcels of land and notable people.  Again, I refer you to the book to get the most complete story.

http://www.amazon.com/Overhills-Images-America-North-Carolina/dp/0738554332

OK, this one is for you Tom Paul:
William Kent was Skull and Bones too!

I just looked that up elsewhere - I didn't see that in the Oral History.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kent_%28U.S._Congressman%29
And so...the plot thickens...
I was just writing a folklore piece about an obscure course for a wealthy family.  However, now that we have a whole nest of Skull and Bones running around beside a large special military facility and lurking the higher rungs of government...curious and curiouser...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 10:42:24 AM by Chris Buie »

TEPaul

"OK, this one is for you Tom Paul:
William Kent was Skull and Bones too!

I just looked that up elsewhere - I didn't see that in the Oral History.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kent_%28U.S._Congressman%29
And so...the plot thickens...
I was just writing a folklore piece about an obscure course for a wealthy family.  However, now that we have a whole nest of Skull and Bones running around beside a large special military facility and lurking the higher rungs of government...curious and curiouser..."



Chris Buie:

To me that kind of stuff is interesting----really interesting actually, because it just adds some pretty fascinating background tapestry to some of these clubs and courses. It basically puts them into the actual historical context in which and with which they emanated out of and had they not had that interweaving tapestry and context of people they may've never existed in the first place.

And perhaps you're thinking that some of what I said above is some attempt to criticize those people. It isn't that at all---it's just portraying them and given who they were their collective histories has a remarkably large and interesting way of weaving through the history of this country and even the world.

Bill Brightly

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Ran,

I know how you must HATE the idea of policing the site. But please consider the impact if a rude poster got this message:

Your recent post has been deemed inappropriate. Your ability to post in the DG has been suspended for 30 days. You are welcome to try again in 30 days. If future posts do not meet the standards of politeness and civility that are expected, you will be permanantly removed from the site.

I think once the word got out, most people would THINK before they posted. I know this is a bit of work for you (or someone you would assign to the task) but obviously this site and its image is very important  to you. I think this would clean it up in a matter of months.

I think the Hatfields and the McCoys have a ton of valuable gca insight but they just can't stop themselves from fighting. The sad truth is that most men are just boys who need to know where the line is, and once punished, don't cross it again...

Chris Buie

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Mr. Paul, I am finding this interesting.  I'm usually only interested in conspiracy theories when I haven't been on my medication for a while. It's usually the province of, shall we say, people with special challenges.  However, as we peel back layer after layer something appears to be coming into a little more specific relief.
My only point earlier was that a lot of people seem to assume there are fiendish plans at work when people that hold the strings get together.  I was trying to point out that a lot of times they really are to a large degree holding things together and essentially working for the greater good.  I'm fairly well versed in the period of American History between the end of WWII and Vietnam.  Harriman and the other guys I mentioned earlier were most definitely doing all they could to keep things on an even keel and were not the chessmasters of subjugation.  I didn't mean to lump you in with those clods who prattle about the usual conspiracy plots.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 01:02:00 PM by Chris Buie »

TEPaul

"Mr. Paul, I am finding this interesting.  I'm usually only interested in conspiracy theories when I haven't been on my medication for a while."


Chris:

I agree with you---I've never been into conspiracy theories and this book I mentioned----"The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush" sure seemed like that to me when I first saw it and began to read it. However, on further reflection the thing about it which really began to blow my mind was its bibliography of material which appears to have been declassified. I guess we need to remember that if it is a subject that deals with such things as the US Intelligence Community of a particular time some of these things do have particular schedules for declassification and the fact is with a lot of it around WW2 and before and even just after we have been at that declassifiction time in recent years.

Lester George

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Gentlemen,

As a newly commsioned second lieutenant in 1978, I went to my Field Artillery Officer Basic training at Ft sill Oklahoma.  Right after that I was assigned to the 80th Infantry Training Division in Richmond.  Having taken up golf at Ft Sill for the second (and more serious) time, I was thrilled to find out that my mission for the next few years would be supporting the 82nd Airbourne Division at Ft Bragg. 

I spent approximately 20 of the next 25 years supporting the 82nd and going to Ft Bragg.  There were TWO golf courses at Ft Braff and one at Pope AFB that we frequented as well as all the others in the area.  One day an old codger at the Ft Bragg course told us that there was a privately owned course outside of Spring Lake that was abandoned and was the "playground for the rich" when he was growing up there. 

I guess we have now indentified what course that was.  Great stuff Chris!!!!!!

Lester

Chris Buie

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Guess who designed the Stryker golf course on Ft. Bragg in 1946?
Mr. Ross, of course. 

Tom MacWood

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Guess who designed the Stryker golf course on Ft. Bragg in 1946?
Mr. Ross, of course. 

Ross was actively involved in design in 1946? I wonder if that course was designed many years before it was built.

Chris Buie

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Tom, he worked until he passed away in 1948.  Raleigh CC was his last course and that had to be finished by his protégé Ellis Maples.

Tom MacWood

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Chris
You might want to double check that, I think he retired from active design in the 30's, which is why for example George Wright GC in Boston was finished by Walter Irving Johnson.


Tom MacWood

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Chris
That is interesting. Do you know if the Tufts archives has anything on Raleigh or Ft. Bragg or his design activities in the 40s? It is my impression Ross retired, more or less, in 1933-34, which is when his primary associates Walter Hatch, JB McGovern, and Walter Irving Johnson took new jobs or went out on their own. Pinehurst #2 became his primary focus at that point. I find it hard to believe he came out of retirement after WWII in his 70s, that is why I suspect those projects were likely designed earlier and delayed by Depression and War.

Chris Buie

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Hello Lads, I managed an intrepid little trip out to Overhills this A.M. and took some photos.  I'll post more later when I have time. 
My friend and I came away with the firm opinion that it should be restored as R&R for Vets.  It is too valuable as a unique piece of American history and Ross' work to be abandoned.  It only takes up a very small bit of the base and it would serve the military much better as a place for the soldiers to go for the same purpose it has always been used for: personal restoration.  I'll write more later.







Mr. MacWood, I'll get back with you later on Ross in the 40's.  In the meantime, here is another link for you:

http://www.clickitgolf.com/course.php?courseId=48

TEPaul

Re: Overhills History w/ New Photos
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2010, 03:39:26 PM »
Chris:

Looking at those photos of Ross' Overhills course growing over reminds me a lot of Ross' course on Fort George Island, the Ribault Club, north of Jacksonville that has been growing over for some years now. It's sort of spooking really to go out there and find the vestiges of the architecture under the overgrowth.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Overhills History w/ New Photos
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2010, 07:56:53 PM »
While I was searching for someting about Ross I came across this from the June 17, 1916 NY Evening Post:
 
All points of the compass are covered by Ross, for during the summer and the coming winter he expects to go south to lay out a new nine hole course for the Overhills Country Club, North Carolina; to remodel and trap the Palmetto Country Club, South Carolina, and to go over to Palm Beach and St. Augustine.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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