[Tom_Doak]

Nick,

No, the site does not really remind me of Victoria National at all.  There is much greater and broader elevation change, and you can see across the site in many places, whereas at Victoria the mining works give each hole a sense of seclusion (and lack of air movement!).

Actually, one of the other sites on the Mosaic property DID remind me a lot of Victoria National, having been very recently mined, and without the vegetation growing back over the site.  Both Bill and I preferred to work on what we have, which is why we conspired to digger out how to get 36 holes into the prime location.

[Jason Connor]

Living in Orlando, I'm thrilled with this news.  The way the courses intertwine is also fascinating.

Are there two cape holes on the Renaissance 18?  Whoever drew the blue lines took an especially aggressive carry on the far upper left cape hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

We are supposed to be filling in a bit of the lake on #14 Blue, which I think is the hole you referenced, so the carry won't be so difficult.

Unfortunately, we have found that the lake is 30 or 40 feet deep (!) in the little cove which we intended to fill.  So we are probably going to move the tees up a bit instead of trying to fill it out so far.

[Dave Falkner]

Ted Cahill,

I agree about the lodging. If they build what the rendition depicts it will be a lost opportunity. That's looks like just a slightly more updated version of the standard box resort so common in greater Orlando. I would have liked to see something more deconstructed and indigenous.

Indigenous to central fla?  I dont think a lot of folks are gonna pay to stay in trailers or tar paper

although trailers might give it a ballybunion feel

[David_Tepper]

Article in today's Wall Street Journal on the controversy over Mosaic's phosphate mining operation in Florida:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703945904575645142173001212.html?mod=ITP_pageone_1

[John_Conley]

Mosaic Mosaic Mosaic.  I kept thinking, weird I've never heard of Mosaic since I'm from Minnesota.

Turns out Mosaic is a division of Cargill.  Now it makes sense.

Good article.  Thanks for sharing.

[Scott Warren]

Tom Doak:

36-hole complex with courses named Red and Blue that have intertwining routings?

Which one of you and Bill is Simpson and which of you is Fowler?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tom Doak:

36-hole complex with courses named Red and Blue that have intertwining routings?

So, I guess the composite course will be called the Purple Course.  Or would that be the Moderate Course?

[Jud_T]

11,000 acres...well if no more mining, how about another 50 courses?   

[Jim Nugent]

Tom Doak:

36-hole complex with courses named Red and Blue that have intertwining routings?

So, I guess the composite course will be called the Purple Course.  Or would that be the Moderate Course?

Add a third course -- the White -- and it's the All American Course, or the National Golf Course of America. 

[David_Tepper]

Fellow GCA-er Tom Dunne recently visited the Doak course under construction at the future Songstream Resort and posted a nice writeup (with pics) on his Out And Back website. Here is a link:

http://www.out-and-back.net/?p=2489  

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks for the link David.

[Steve Kline]

It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.

You're kidding right? 80 degrees being pretty hot to walk. That's hardly above room temperature. Heck I walk 18 on a course the requires you to be a billy goat (300 feet top to bottom) all the time in the summer in Cincinnati. Last year I did it on day of 98 degrees with the humidity in the 90% range. I walk all the time at Pinehurst in the summer too. At least in Florida the courses are flat.

[Alex Miller]

It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.

You're kidding right? 80 degrees being pretty hot to walk. That's hardly above room temperature. Heck I walk 18 on a course the requires you to be a billy goat (300 feet top to bottom) all the time in the summer in Cincinnati. Last year I did it on day of 98 degrees with the humidity in the 90% range. I walk all the time at Pinehurst in the summer too. At least in Florida the courses are flat.

Not all of us have the 36 hole/day 6 days/week regiment to help us get in shape Steve!


These pictures look outstanding. I wonder what the stability of the site will be like as the sand looks very fine.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

Streamsong is anything but flat.  You've got to climb up a 40-foot dune just to get to my first tee.  And I was walking in open sand on that 80-degree day, which does make a bit of difference.  It's definitely walkable in those conditions, but not everybody is going to do it.


Alex:

What in the heck does "fine sand" have to do with "the stability of the site"?  Can you provide an example where a course was unstable because the sand was too fine?

[jeffwarne]

Steve:

Streamsong is anything but flat.  You've got to climb up a 40-foot dune just to get to my first tee.  And I was walking in open sand on that 80-degree day, which does make a bit of difference.  It's definitely walkable in those conditions, but not everybody is going to do it.


Alex:

What in the heck does "fine sand" have to do with "the stability of the site"?  Can you provide an example where a course was unstable because the sand was too fine?

I've known plenty of women that were unstable and fine

[Alex Miller]

Steve:

Streamsong is anything but flat.  You've got to climb up a 40-foot dune just to get to my first tee.  And I was walking in open sand on that 80-degree day, which does make a bit of difference.  It's definitely walkable in those conditions, but not everybody is going to do it.


Alex:

What in the heck does "fine sand" have to do with "the stability of the site"?  Can you provide an example where a course was unstable because the sand was too fine?

I'm sorry, I really don't know. I guess my question should have had more to do with the property itself. I don't know very much about the actual construction process, so are there any challenges or advantages that will prove themselves in construction given the site's natural state?

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:

Streamsong is anything but flat.  You've got to climb up a 40-foot dune just to get to my first tee.  And I was walking in open sand on that 80-degree day, which does make a bit of difference.  It's definitely walkable in those conditions, but not everybody is going to do it.


Alex:

What in the heck does "fine sand" have to do with "the stability of the site"?  Can you provide an example where a course was unstable because the sand was too fine?

I've known plenty of women that were unstable and fine

Alex:  The only "stability" issue we have had to worry about is whether some of the very steep lake banks need to be pulled back a bit.  They weren't building those edges for stability when they were doing the mining.  Some of the sand has been drifting a little bit in the wind, but that shouldn't be a problem once we get irrigation on it.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tom,
I forget where I read it, but I saw something about a problem with irrigation?
Are you installing pipe as we speak and will grass be growing by late spring?

[Tom_Doak]

Don:

We've been having problems with the final permit to use the water in the lakes for irrigation, but I have been told that a temporary permit is in place.  I hope that's the case, because the irrigation system has been bid out and awarded, and they are supposed to start in the next week or ten days; or at least that was the schedule before I took off for China.

We are skeptical that we will be able to grass all 36 holes this summer, but we should have the majority of the courses grassed this year with a few holes carrying over to early spring of 2012.

[SPDB]

Tom D. -
Will there be any disruption of the project as a result of the spinoff of Mosaic from Cargill?

[Tom_Doak]

SPDB:  I don't believe so.  Both entities have been fully informed on the project from the beginning; it's not like Mosaic is the subject of a hostile takeover.  [That actually happened to a project of mine, once; we were about to start construction when the company was taken over and the new owners had no interest in a development project.]  And our client informed us of the change when I was down there last month, with no indication that it created any issues for the development of the resort.

[Jonathan Webb]

http://www.theledger.com/article/20110220/NEWS/102205023/1410?Title=Mosaic-Hopes-to-Draw-Golfers-to-Courses-by-Famed-Designers

[Garland Bayley]

I am wondering if this is in the Lake Wales Sand Ridge so that it would be neighbor to Smyer's Southern Dunes and Lee's Diamondback, or maybe C&C's Sugarloaf Mtn, but I think it must be quite south of there.

[John_Cullum]

Yes, it is quite a bit south of Orlando, and somewhat west as well

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