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Jim_Kennedy

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In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« on: September 28, 2010, 11:45:05 PM »
Here are a few photos of a public course in the Catskills, Stamford GC to be exact, in the small town of the same name. I've always wondered who may have been the architect and JNC's thread on the-other-Rayner-at-Leatherstocking got me wondering if Len made it out here. No one at the club seems to know, so as yet it belongs in the portfolio of my all-time favorite architect,  Unknown.  ;D

This is the first, a 240 yard par 3 with a green that is lower at the back. The drop is 40', maybe 50'.  Tough start. The third hole is about the same yardage and par with a green that also tilts toward the back, but the drop shot is only 15' or so.


Here's a shot at the 12th, a 'mini-ritz' green. The photo doesn't do it justice but the swale is very prominent from the fairway, that photo was erased, sorry. This green sits at the end of a downhill 435 yard par 4.


The swale, seen from the right side. There is a huge bunker on the right side of the green, but it has grass in it.


Looking back up the fairway:


I really get a kick out of the 16th, a 285 yard par 4.  From the tee:


in the fairway:


short right:


from the left:


from the road as we were driving up to the course:


This is the 17th green, another 245 yard par 3. The 3's beat you up at Stamford.  ;D


and finally, the uphill par 4 18th, as viewed from the clubhouse:


All in all, a fun place to play and one that will accommodate most folks.    
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 02:25:39 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

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Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2010, 11:58:12 PM »
Cool photos.  Let's see, a fallaway green at the 1st, and two wild greens on the closing holes.  That 16th green alone looks worth a trip.  Any other highlights out there?  I checked out the course on Google Maps, and it looks like the course is very burnt out--I'm guessing no irrigation?

Let's see, the course is under 2 hours from Colgate...day trip?

I wonder if Len Rayner designed this one, maybe Fulton History will yield some info.  Woodstock Country Club is another one I would like to check out.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2010, 12:23:16 AM »
JNC,
There are some fun contours at the 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th.

Very little irrigation, it usually plays firm. There's one or two fairway bunkers, but the terrain makes up for that.

The green at the par 5 10th:



Looking from the first tee to the 18th green. The grade that cart is sitting on is 15%.


It's just under 90 miles from me, but I get out there several times a season. I go for the quiet and the fun.

I've only been to Woodstock a handful of times, but it's also a very peaceful, uncrowded place to play.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2010, 12:27:56 AM »
Another course you listed in your Leatherstocking thread, Sullivan County in Liberty, is definitely Rayner as well.  I just found another newspaper article confirming it.  This course appears to be existence as well--I stopped less than a mile from the course to get gas on the way to Hackensack on Sunday.  May be worth a trip.

Stamford looks fun, I want see if I can confirm Rayner's involvement.  The guy was clearly a big name in Central New York golf, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was responsible for Stamford.

John
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2010, 12:44:18 AM »
Still no good evidence on Stamford's architect.  It seems that the course has been there in some form since 1899.  However, one article did speak of improvements to the golf course in 1930--right in Rayner's heyday.  The mystery remains unsolved.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jon Wiggett

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Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2010, 02:16:55 AM »
Hi Jim,

this looks like a really fun to play course. It also seems to use bunkers sparingly, relying more on the the green contours to create the interest of play. If you or any one else have more photos, please post.

Jon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2010, 09:28:42 AM »
JNC,
The SGC was originally located at the Rexmere Hotel, which is located closer to town, and is now used by BOCES as an educational center.
It was built by Dr. Stephen Churchill, and the area is/was known as Churchill Park. There was a 9 hole course on the grounds and they once had Willie Dunn up for a season to make some improvements. It may have been known as Usayantha Golf Club at the time.
 SGC moved to it's present location sometime after that, or so it appears. There is a small photo from 1917 showing a clubhouse and I was told that was located at the 'new' course.

The Rexmere:



"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

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Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2010, 10:34:50 PM »
Those are some crazy greens. What was Rayner's background?

JNC Lyon

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Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2010, 10:40:06 PM »
Tom,

Check out my posted article in the Leatherstocking thread.  It has all of the background info on Rayner.  It sounds like he was a class act.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

PCCraig

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Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2010, 09:20:20 AM »
Those look like some fun greens!!! :)
H.P.S.

Mark McKeever

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Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2010, 10:29:34 AM »
Those greens look very interesting.  17 almost looks like a double plateau?

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2010, 01:17:30 PM »
The greens really make for a fun game at SGC. There are a few flattish putting surfaces, like the small 2nd and 11th, but these two are small, under 3,000 sq ft. The largest green, #5, is around 8,500 sq ft and is also relatively flat.
The other greens that I would call placid are at least tilted away from, or to the side of, the line of play, but you'll still need to blend speed/line/force if your shot does not land on the low/high axis on any of these greens.

17 does resemble a double plateau.There are greens here that also have a 'familiar' feel to them, leading me to think that whoever built the course had a reasonably good knowledge of GCA.

Edit: Here's a photo of #5. Hopefully the small plateau at the back shows up. Even though this green is large and 'flat' it  will reject a shot hit to the left side.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 01:29:50 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2010, 11:05:40 AM »
A final note about this club. 

Green fees for the shoulder seasons (prior to May 15th and after Sept. 22nd) are $15.00 to walk eighteen. They're $21.00 during the high season.

Membership is under $1,400 for a family and under $900.00 for a single.


 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: In Len Rayner Country (with help from Travis)
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2010, 02:17:34 PM »
I've been searching for some more info about Len Rayner and/or Stamford Country Club and came across the articles I've linked below. It appears that in all three of them credit for the course, or the rebuilding and rearranging of an earlier course, fell on the capable shoulders of one Walter J. Travis.  (sorry Len  :'( )

This is pretty cool info as the club has (had!  ;D ) no idea of who built their course. It'll be fun to let them know. Hope they don't raise their rates.  :o  

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201924%20Grayscale/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201924%20Grayscale%20-%200113.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=200abcb8&DocId=1613026&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=2&hits=679+67a+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201928%20Grayscale/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201928%20Grayscale%20-%200356.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=20f6e304&DocId=1615738&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=2&hits=94c+94d+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%205/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle%201925%20Grayscale/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle%201925%20Grayscale%20-%203931.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=ffffffffc7aa1a75&DocId=13242389&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=3&hits=b5+b6+b7+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf


 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 02:19:19 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tim Gavrich

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Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2010, 02:58:15 PM »
It reminds me a lot of Copake CC, but apparently even quirkier in places, judging by the photos.  Do they ever put the pin on that high left-rear shelf on that 16th hole?  Because they should, every so often at least.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2010, 03:38:06 PM »
Jim,

In short, WOW!  That Travis discovery is phenomenal.  I hope to get over there soon.  The fact that Walter Travis did work here (I think that 16th green is classic Travis) does not rule out the possibility of Rayner's involvement.  Though if Rayner had been involved, it probably would have been mentioned in one of those articles.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2010, 07:27:23 PM »
JNC,
I haven't found anything mentioning Rayner in conjunction w/Stamford.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Sweeney

Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2010, 09:03:37 PM »
Jim,

It is a little unclear, did Travis do 9 or 18?

Do you have a website for the current Churchill BOCES? It did not popup on Google.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2010, 09:13:20 PM »
Mike,
I'd have to re-read the articles, but I think he did 18. There are, however, a few holes on the course that do not 'feel' the same as the rest of them.

The website you requested:

 http://www.oncboces.org/CyrCenter.cfm?subpage=14236
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike Sweeney

Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2010, 09:28:50 PM »
It is amazing some of the grand hotels and courses that were built upstate in the 1920's. That does not seem like it was ever easy to get to Stamford NY from NYC. While the current club website says 1897, it looks like the real course was built in the 1920's and obviously it never caught on with the city crowd.

Maybe next season we can make a little trip but I still need to play Travis' CC of Troy.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2010, 10:01:22 PM »
Mike,
There was train service into the Catskills in those days, The trip to Stamford was 5 hours. There are quite a few articles of 'society' news about the place that I haven't bothered to post.  Helen Gould Shepard (railroad magnate Jay Gould's daughter) built an estate course called Shephard Hills that's about 15 miles away in Roxbury.

http://www.shephardhills.com/history.htm

Very funky little course. It has a par 4 w/a three tiered fairway as an opening hole, a par three with a V-shaped green, a beautiful downhill par 4 w/a green that's cut into the side of a hill, a couple of other pretty good holes, and it's exceptionally quiet when you get back on the property. Nice place for an emergency nine.  :)  
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 10:08:05 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2010, 04:41:42 PM »
It reminds me a lot of Copake CC, but apparently even quirkier in places, judging by the photos.  Do they ever put the pin on that high left-rear shelf on that 16th hole?  Because they should, every so often at least.

Sorry Tim, I missed your reply.  :-[

I've never seen the pin on the shelf, although we never fail to try putting balls up it, and we usually try to make a few bank shots off it to the existing pin.  ;D

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2010, 05:43:12 PM »
It reminds me a lot of Copake CC, but apparently even quirkier in places, judging by the photos.  Do they ever put the pin on that high left-rear shelf on that 16th hole?  Because they should, every so often at least.

Sorry Tim, I missed your reply.  :-[

I've never seen the pin on the shelf, although we never fail to try putting balls up it, and we usually try to make a few bank shots off it to the existing pin.  ;D



Jim, I made a little drive to Stamford yesterday.  Though I didn't play there (I checked out the old nine at Shepherd Hills--very quirky), I did drive by the course.  They had the pin on the top shelf on 16, for "Impossible Pin Day," I believe.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2010, 06:01:24 PM »
JNC,
Perhaps we can get out there before the season ends.

The 16th green is about 4,500 sq ft and the old bunker footprints are about that same sq footage.  The tenth, the par 5, is the same. Large bunker footprints, very little sand.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2010, 06:13:02 PM »
JNC,
Perhaps we can get out there before the season ends.

The 16th green is about 4,500 sq ft and the old bunker footprints are about that same sq footage.  The tenth, the par 5, is the same. Large bunker footprints, very little sand.

Absolutely, I'd love to get out there at some point.  Since the course has minimal bunkers now, I think it would be interesting to find out how much the course has changed from when Travis, usually as bunker happy as they came, originally laid it out.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

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