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Will E

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Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« on: September 22, 2010, 08:46:45 PM »
so that I can explain it to a friend of mine that is a wicked good architect

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2010, 09:01:37 PM »
No, but that won't stop them from trying.  ;D

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,20633.0/
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Garland Bayley

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2010, 09:53:34 PM »
Shot values are whatever you want them to be. I usually count one for each one of mine. :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim_Kennedy

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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

jeffwarne

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2010, 12:25:24 PM »
so that I can explain it to a friend of mine that is a wicked good architect

I thought you explained to me a couple of years ago that they didn't matter as long as the rough was  fescue not bluegrass ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 10:31:11 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCrosby

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2010, 12:39:06 PM »
Are they like pornography? I'll know it when I see it?

Brent Hutto

Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2010, 01:59:18 PM »
Well I know this. When chipping, wedges and bunker shots it ain't a good shot until you make the putt?

Mike Hendren

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2010, 09:25:31 AM »
The premium placed on trajection, distance and accuracy?
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matt_Ward

Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2010, 11:34:41 AM »
Being called upon to hit the fullest range of shots -- beyond what Mike H mentioned -- also calls upon shot shaping as needed.

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2010, 03:20:14 PM »
Shot value relates to the degree of difficulty a course presents. A 180-yard shot to a flat green with no bunkers has little shot value, because a poor shot will be barely worse than a good shot. A shot of the same distance to an undulating green with bunkers, and perhaps a stream running alongside, has much more shot value, because it requires more precision, and precision requires skill.

Perhaps it should be called skill value.

Other people may have different definitions, but that's mine.
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George Pazin

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2010, 03:35:00 PM »
Nice post, Tim, that's probably one of the clearest and most concise explanations I've read.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2010, 04:14:38 PM »
I don't know if I can be clearer, but I can be more concise: shot values measure the variety of shots played during a round of golf.

A course has good shot values if it makes you play all kinds of shots using every club in your bag. So in my mind it doesn't pertain directly to the degree of difficulty or skill required.

Also, if at one point you are forced to hit a draw or fail utterly, then that is not a sign of good shot values. If the draw will give you an advantage, but the fade will also get you there, then you have two options instead of one - albeit with a different risk/reward profile, but two options nonetheless. That is more variety and thus higher shot values.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 04:18:23 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

George Pazin

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2010, 04:18:00 PM »
A course has good shot values if it makes you play all kinds of shots using every club in your bag. So in my mind it doesn't pertain directly to the degree of difficulty or skill required.

Ulrich

Love the way you put this. I've said before, I don't care if I hit 3 7 irons in a row, if they differ in shape/trajectory/etc. In fact, I'd rather hit a 7 iron for every shot - provided they are different and unique shots - than the vaunted "every club in the bag" if every club is a stock shot (ie. normal swing, drop and stop type shot).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sean_A

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2010, 07:10:05 PM »
I am not sure what shot values are, but I can say shot values have nothing to do with using "all the clubs in the bag".  What if one guy uses 6 clubs and another 14?  Does this somehow mean the 14 club guy is tested more in the shot value department?  Honestly, its a poor descriptor to use for an indication of a the quality of a design.  Why not just describe how the, terrain, elements and architecture worked together over a few of the shots, holes or sequence of holes to get the variety message across? 

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Michael Blake

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2010, 08:43:40 PM »
From Golf Digest's methodology:


1. SHOT VALUES
How well does the course pose risks and rewards and equally test length, accuracy and finesse?

Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/golf-courses/2009-05/100greatestgolfcourses_methodology#ixzz10UuKSc1O



Bradley Anderson

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2010, 08:49:42 PM »
Shot value is a term that you hear a lot but no one ever has explained what it means. So I'll try:

I think it refers to the quality of the spot on the golf course you are hitting from, through the green. When you stand over the ball and consider all your options to the hole, you have at least one challenging and interesting shot to consider, and possibly more, with each stroke. And the more challenging and interesting the shots are, the higher the shot value.

A high shot value spot of the golf course would be one that requires some thought, before hitting, in addition to skill. Usually when I look back at a round of golf I can pick out as many shots where I made a bad decision as those where I made a bad shot. So those where spots on the golf course that had a high shot value because the right shot wasn't obvious at first glance.

When we talk about a golf hole having a high shot value, I think we are saying that every spot on the hole has interesting and challenging options through the green.

That's my take on the term shot value.




Mike_Young

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2010, 09:09:45 PM »
IMHO shot value is determined from the green back....the difficulty of placing the golf ball in a particular location on the green from a particular location on the golf course is the value of that shot...various locations into the green from the fairway or rough create the value of the tee shot....and the combination of shot values determine the strategy.....uhhhh.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2010, 09:12:16 PM »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2010, 07:12:14 AM »
Quote
What if one guy uses 6 clubs and another 14?

I am assuming no one is carrying clubs that he can't or won't hit. One guy is comfortable with 6 clubs, but can hit different shots with them. Another guy needs all 14, because he likes to make the same swing every time. A course with good shot values will cater to both. They will both use all the clubs in their bag and hit all the shots they can possibly hit with those clubs.

An extremely limited player may not hit as many different shots as a more versatile one, but he will hit more different shots on a course with good shot values than on one with bad shot values.

Urlich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Mike_Young

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2010, 11:12:10 AM »
True shot value is the fully allocated cost of your round divided by the total number of strokes. The higher the score the better the deal
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2010, 11:49:11 AM »
I don't know why I am entering this fray, since it's obvious from the answers above that the term is used so many ways by different people that it's essentially meaningless.

The GOLF DIGEST definition is about the course as a whole and how it tests one's game.  Some people think this implies that every hole and every shot should test length, accuracy and finesse, but I believe it's enough for each of them to be tested over the 18 holes.

Others apply Mike's first definition, that every shot should matter, but the degree to which they should ideally matter is subjective.  By Tim's definition, the harder the individual shots, the better the shot value, and I don't think that is correct -- even though many GOLF DIGEST panelists do it that way, which is why hard courses are overrated in their poll.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2010, 12:24:05 PM »
By Tim's definition, the harder the individual shots, the better the shot value, and I don't think that is correct -- even though many GOLF DIGEST panelists do it that way, which is why hard courses are overrated in their poll.

Good point Tom...

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Wade Schueneman

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2010, 01:43:53 PM »
I always associate a shots value with the potential for reward or punishment that it presents (unless the hole doles out those results somewhat arbitrarily).   In my mind it means that there is a marked strategic advantage gained by the player that can tailor and execute certain types of shots.  The soft flat green with a center hole location and empty surrounds offer little advantage to a player who can shape shots, control spin, control trajectory, etc.  The hole is just as easily accessed with any of those shots, and the player need not fret to much about which shot he choses or how well he is able to execute that particular shot, because missing that shot still leads to an easy pitch and putt or easy 2 putt for par.  I think we call it shot value, because depending on which shot is selected and how well it is performed, a player can quickly move from a birdie try to a double bogey.  That is what makes the shot important or valuable and thus demands our full attention.  So I guess in a sense, it is a volatility factor (although one that measure just volatility).

However, when we rate a course for shot values I know I kind of combine this with an assessment of variety.  It is possible to build a course with very high shot values where a high, spinning fade yields the greatest probability of success on every shot.  However, I normally say that a course has high shot values only if over an entire round, a that course demands that (in order to score well) you carefully and skillfully plan and execute all of the proverbial shots in the bag (shots with different shapes, trajectory, spin, etc.) with all of the clubs in the bag.   

It seems to me that one needs to play a course many times to get a sense of aggregate shot values since 1) hole locations are probably the biggest factor and 2) wind and other conditions will have a huge effect on shot values.

Anyway, after all of this ranting I will try a short and sweet mathematical definition:  A course presents shigh shot values if modest positive perturbations in the selection and execution of shots over an entire round generally results in a commensurate improvement in scoring. 

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2010, 02:01:32 PM »

Shot Values

It’s another nail in the coffin on enjoying golf with a whole load of BS – it helps take your mind off the game and fills it with useless irrelevant information.

Just go and open your eyes and enjoy the course that awaits you, don’t kill the sense

Melvyn

JNC Lyon

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Re: Can anyone explain what shot values are?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2010, 03:13:19 PM »

Shot Values

It’s another nail in the coffin on enjoying golf with a whole load of BS – it helps take your mind off the game and fills it with useless irrelevant information.

Just go and open your eyes and enjoy the course that awaits you, don’t kill the sense

Melvyn


I agree 100% here.  I think the concept of "shot values" is garbage.  It assumes that every player is hitting the same shots on every hole.  It de-emphasizes subtlety and rewards flash and drama.  I think "shot values" are worthless.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

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