[Matt_Ward]

WV follows the demanding uphill 12th -- with an equally demanding challenge going back the other way. The slight dog-leg right 13th is another long par-4 -- this time at 505 yards from the tips.

The tee shot provides a blind sight line because you cannot see your ball land. Two main bunkers bracket the fairway but it pays to be as near as possible to the right bunker to soften the approach angle. The green is one of WV's best -- it favors a shot that can be faded into the target. The green has a favorable entry way for those who want to avoid the bunkers that protect the entire right side of the target.

Both the 12th and 13th make for a stunning twosome in their overall design and breath of challenge.

[Matt_Ward]

The final five holes at WV are quite a mixture.

The par-3 14th plays roughly 170 yards -- but the green provides a range of contour movements --especially on the wings.

The uphill -ar-5 15th could be changed to a par-4 if desired. The hole length is complicated by a left frontal bunker that blocks off much of the green. Just a small target and the elevation change is worth at least 2 clubs.

The par-3 16th looks very simple but the green angle is set in a slight diagonal and balls that come into the target from the left side have a great shot in getting close - but the ground on that side can deflect balls if they are tugged just a tad too much to that side. The back right bunker is well-placed and will grab any errant shot that is off the mark even slightly.

The 17th at Wine Valley plays abotu 420 yards -- uphill again with a very pesky bunker that blocks the ideal line from the right -- the green is not especially deep but it's quite wide and requires roughly 1/2 more club to get into the target.

The closing hole is a downhill par-5 of 565 yards -- bunkers guard the drive zone from both sides and the hole provides a closing birdie opportunity but the tee shot sets that motion.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks for the pictures Matt.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Patience.

The photographer who came with me to Wine Valley has a number of first rate pics -- including a sensational sunset !

She's on assignment now and once that concludes and once the pics have been sorted out for what can be posted on GCA you'll be able to judge for yourself.

thanks,

[Matt_Ward]

Just one other comment for now -- the sum of WV is really well done. Plenty of options galore and the playability element is clearly alive and well. Angles do matter when playing the course and when you have truly solid fast and firm conditions the bar of shotmaking is clearly high.

I'd be curious to know from those who have played it how high would they rate the course against other public courses that are $100 or lower in playing fees?

[Garland Bayley]

Falls behind The Links of North Dakota for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

You're joking -- I hope.

Wine Valley is in line with the likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon to me.

Links of ND doesn't sniff that trio.

[Garland Bayley]

The Links of ND makes golfweek top 100 modern. Rustic doesn't. So you are alone on your assessment in that regard.

So LND plays in a similar arena with Wild Horse. I doubt Wine Valley will.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

That's rich -- you hold out Golfweek as the sole determining ingredient for course greatness.

They've missed the boat on plenty -- just check out their latest best places to play in each state summary.

Rustic Canyon is beyond Links of ND -- have you played the CA course or simply just LND and WV ?

Please state with clarity what YOU have played. I prefer to get solo opinions on such matters for total clarification.

WV is a superb layout and has the better terrain, routing and overall presentation than LND.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

That's rich -- you hold out Golfweek as the sole determining ingredient for course greatness.

Not hardly. I use Golfweek to demonstrate that I am in the vast majority comparing LND to RC, whereas you may be in a minority that could be as small as 1.

They've missed the boat on plenty -- just check out their latest best places to play in each state summary.

Rustic Canyon is beyond Links of ND -- have you played the CA course or simply just LND and WV ?

Please state with clarity what YOU have played. I prefer to get solo opinions on such matters for total clarification.

I have played LND, RC, and WV, but not WH.

WV is a superb layout and has the better terrain, routing and overall presentation than LND.

The number of absurd statements that you make to put down LND continues to grow.

Fortunately Golfweek keeps past rankings on their site, so I was able to discover that RC has only recently fallen out of the top 100. Therefore, although you hold a minority opinion of it, it is not as minority as I had suspected.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Look at the Golfweek listing for the best places to play in each state -- there's plenty of holes on that list.

The western states and those in the mountain time zone seem to be especially bizarre.

WV is right there with Wild Horse on all architectural elements -- I see it ahead. The lone area where WH winds conclusively is on the price front. WV is still a bargain biut WH is a steal.

Absurd?

Let's try this again -- the first six holes at LND are pedestian holes. Only when you get to the par-5 7th does the course raise the stakes. The rest of the layout is quite good but when you have 1/3 of the course being quite ordinary you have a major hole to fill. WV has the better overall consistency in terms of the holes. A few of the par-3 holes there are quite tame but the green contours more than make up for that. There's one siure thing that LND does win -- utter remoteness.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

Look at the Golfweek listing for the best places to play in each state -- there's plenty of holes on that list.

The western states and those in the mountain time zone seem to be especially bizarre.

WV is right there with Wild Horse on all architectural elements -- I see it ahead. The lone area where WH winds conclusively is on the price front. WV is still a bargain biut WH is a steal.

Absurd?

Let's try this again -- the first six holes at LND are pedestian holes. Only when you get to the par-5 7th does the course raise the stakes. The rest of the layout is quite good but when you have 1/3 of the course being quite ordinary you have a major hole to fill. WV has the better overall consistency in terms of the holes. A few of the par-3 holes there are quite tame but the green contours more than make up for that. There's one siure thing that LND does win -- utter remoteness.

Absurd, because of your claim the terrain and routing are inferior. You seem not to remember the terrain and routing as you have claimed Eastmoreland in Portland had better terrain.

Then every time you have written in the past that the first six holes are pedestrian, when reminded of the 2nd you write oh yes the 2nd, I forgot about the second. Perhaps you need to go back to ND and refresh your memory.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

The first six holes at LND are merely warm-ups for what lies ahead. The game begins with the par-5 7th.

WV has the better collection of holes -- the better terrain and the better green sites -- especially the last item by far.

LND is a fine course but anyone making plans to travel there outside of 250 miles will not be thrilled that they took that much time, $$ and effort to get there.

The collaborative efforts that created Wine Valley really focused on a myriad of design details be present during one's round -- they certainly did a stellar job with the budget they had to work with.

You see it whatever way you wish -- WV, in my mind, is ahead of the likes of Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon -- and I like the aforementioned courses. I also like LND but too many people provided votes for it simply because of the isolation factor being in Ray, ND.

[Richard Choi]

Matt, I have a question for you.

I believe Wine Valley share the same DNA with Sagebrush, Bayonne, Rustic Canyon, and perhaps with Whistling Straits and Black Mesa, neither of which I have played. They are all new generation of links style courses that perhaps not quite play like authentic links courses.

How would you rank all of those courses in order? I have a hard time picking the favorite between Bayonne, Sagebrush, and Wine Valley with Rustic Canyon a definite step behind.

[Garland Bayley]

Richard,

Don't confuse Black Mesa as having the same "DNA". It does not have the wide fairways of the others, and can be a ball eater.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

Interesting question.

WV provides ample fairway width and doesn't have the same driving requirements of the others -- notably Black Mesa. However, I do believe that places like Black Mesa are superior to WV because of that ingredient. Driving the ball is an important skill and one that needs to be emphasized rather than just creating mega-fields of open areas that diminish that skill. At BM you get eye-targets that can pysch-out player before they pull the club back. I see the par-4 10th at BM as being one of the finest holes you can play anywhere because it puts mental pressure on the player on the tee. BM, unlike WV, integrates all of the elements at a very high level.

WV, as you correctly pointed out, is a "new generation" of links courses but I am quite hesitant to lump the word "links" in any sort of discussion with the courses you mentioned.

WV champions playability, but it also has the elasticity to provide serious challenges that will not bore the better player. What really interested me in WV is how the greensites are so contoured but not to the point where you have massive waves of movement -- places like Tetherow and even Old Macdonald, come quickly to mind on that front. At WV you have greensites that call upon superior imagination from the player - the bounce of the ball is clearly evident and necessary as a tool to be used by the player.

I want to give some thought to the question you asked in terms of course compariosns == it is something that needs to be weighed carefully before I write down my thoughts with some sort of definitive reasoning.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

Just a few additional thoughts.

Bayonne is just beyond anything else -- primarily because it was created from such a vision given what was there previously.

For all the ink that places like Shadow Creek generate -- the creation of Bayonne is truly mindboggling. Eric Bergstol deserves plenty of credit for succeeding in a location and environment where failure was just a step behind at any time. Bayonne is quite a bit narower than Wine Valley -- the front nine holes especially. I also don't see the turf conditions at Bayonne being as firm and fast as one gets at WV.

I have not played Sagebrush yet -- but from all the reports I have read and received it appears the BC-located course is a winner and does what you mentioned -- provide a 2010 links "style" albeit removed from direct connection to a large body of water nearby. I hope to play it in 2011.

Wine Valley and Bayonne are two entirely different premised courses. WV took a wonderful existing piece of property and made a course with a fairly limited budget. Bayonne, on the other hand, is simply a mega story on man's ability to overcome and impose one's vision on a property that was simply never remotely thought of as a golf option. Clearly $$ made that happen -- so did dogged tenacity.

To paraphrase Tom Doak -- I would place such courses in my favorite listing of places to play because they provide such a thrilling and unique element far beyond your basic variety of courses that are often mass-produced with little attempt at real detailing.

[RJ_Daley]

I don't think anyone put up a link to some of these early photos of WV, that Slag took mostly.  They do show some interesting views, even though they were recent grow-in and bunkers a little raw.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37672.0/

[Garland Bayley]

I don't think anyone put up a link to some of these early photos of WV, that Slag took mostly.  They do show some interesting views, even though they were recent grow-in and bunkers a little raw.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37672.0/

It would be good if Matt would add his promised pictures.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

I have not forgotten -- when they become available happy to post.

thanks,

[Kalen Braley]

Thought I would make a return to the forum and post up about wine Valley.

First off, I've read a few comments that compare, or attempt to compare Wine Valley to Palouse Ridge.  As I now live in the Spokane area, I had a chance to play Palouse a couple of months ago...and I can definitivly say that WV blows away PR.  Don't get me wrong, PR is no chopped liver and a very good course in its own right, but WV is a clear step up.

I'm headed down there tomorrow to take a 2nd look at the course and I hope the 2nd visit will be just as enjoyable and memorable as the 1st one. 

Kalen

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Agree w you on the PR v WV situation. John Harbottle did a fine job with the Pullman layout -- but WV has the more natural flow of holes and the green sites are really tied in very well with the various approach shots one plays.

The sad fact is that these two layouts are far better than many might imagine but because of their relative isolation, even with all the discussion here, are not as fully appreciated as they and should be.

Look forward to your follow-up comments.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm bummed that I didn't get the chance to get out there this weekend.  Mother Nature was unkind to the area this weekend so the plans feel thru.

I may try to get down there next weekend though.  Can't wait to get back.

P.S.  I'll be bringing the camera along to get the latest pics of the place.

[Matt_Ward]

WV is just set in a remote area where little real golf attention is paid.

No doubt that can change with more discussion on what it provides.

Look forward to your stuff.

[Norbert P]

   Matt, glad to read that you made it back out west to Walla Walla and doubly glad you enjoyed the golf.  Thanks for the interesting opinions. I'd be interested in the pictures that everyone is bugging you about. It is a trek, to be sure, but not too far from civilization and I think the drives up the Columbia River Gorge on I84 and SR14 and up the Wallula Gap are damned cool.
 As Kye credits, Tyler and Kris are the tenacious bulldogs that have kept the turf in F&F conditions that have set a new standard for the inland Northwest. 
 There is some updating going on with some new tees and bunkering but I'll have to make some phone calls first.   

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