[Mark Pritchett]

Reminds me of the adage:

"Not as good as it was, better than it will be."

Applies to most things. 

[RSLivingston_III]

I have seen this in other forums that I have been involved with for long periods.
Most everything has been discussed and just gets rehashed by the new members coming in.
I wonder if the conflicts could be mostly the older members looking to enliven things and getting a bit snippy with another over small details? Also seems like we have gained a bunch of "bomb squad" members that really have no interest in architecture.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

Your biggest problem is that you belong to that ignorant, arrogant, brainless, low-class group of New York Yankee lovers...

Let's go METS!

[Martin Toal]

Actually, I am not sure that 'jump the shark' is the appropriate term anyway.

It means to turn into absurdity rather than just decline after many years. The TV show Law and Order is declining after almost 20 years, but hasn't become absurd.

[Steve Okula]

Jeff,

I think that the Yankee's relief pitching is somewhat suspect. Don't you agree?

[Jud_T]

Has it jumped the shark?  Clearly if they let hacks like me in.....

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,

I think that the Yankee's relif pitching is somewhat suspect. Don't you agree?

Yes, all except for the closer.  Best there ever was and will be at closing.



Phillip,

Funny... we say the same thing about you guys.  


Jeff F.

[Emil Weber]

Jeff F,

Compared to you I am probably still a newbie to this board.

However the interesting thing is, that in 2 years, I haven't heard your name on the board and cannot recall a valuable architecture related post of yours.

If you think the DG has become worse, why don't you actually take a look at the first page and share your architectural knowledge and opinion with us and write a few posts?

Remember you are a part of the DG, and if you want it to be better, why not start yourself.

I can't judge if this DG really has become weaker in the past decade, but it certainly hasn't in the past 2 years.

Cheers

[JMEvensky]

Jeff,

Your biggest problem is that you belong to that ignorant, arrogant, brainless, low-class group of New York Yankee lovers...

Let's go METS!

Careful Phil ,some of us Yankee-lovers are in the market for an AWT coffee table book.

[Mac Plumart]

This place is as awesome as people want to make it.  And that is the 100% gospel truth.

I've found people who love golf like I do;

I've found people who love hickory golf like I do;

I've found people who know who CB MacDonald is;

I've encountered people who have differing opinions that I do and I've listened to them...at times finding out they are right, while other times finding out I think my point of view is better or more appropriate for me;

This place isn't perfect and at times some of the things are a bit of a drag and a let down, but some of the highlights of my brief time here have been off the charts wonderful...

playing Pine Needles with Chris Buie, playing Hilton Head with Eric, JC, and Anthony, playing Holston Hills with Eric, Anthony, Mr. Becker, and John.  Hell, before this site I'd never even heard of Holston Hills.  Discovering so many wonderful books.  Literally, I could go on and on.  This place has been a Godsend for me.  

Jeff...I hope this site can get back to its former glory for you, if there is anything I can do to make it better send me an IM...I'll do what I can, if I can make a difference.

[Phil_the_Author]

JM, Tilly's WORST personal quality was that he was a Philadelphia Athletics fan! He even wrote some articles about the team without ever mentioning golf one single time. "AWT coffee table book..." I actually spent an hour on the phone last nioght with a publisher talking about that very subject...

In all seriousness Jeff, the newer ones who haven't seen you comment are missing out...

[SL_Solow]

Jeff;  I understand the source of your post.  I believe that all of the issues you have raised are real.  I believe that the same issues have existed since I first came to the board a long time ago but I believe the issues have become more prevalent recently.  Clearly if these problems diminish any pleasure you receive from being here to the point where you would rather not participate you will join the list of many other valuable contributors who have become "fed up" and the board will be less interesting for your leaving.  I am not there yet, perhaps because as an attorney I have a greater tolerance for the type of discourse that is turning people off.

But threads and events like this one give us an opportunity to ask why we come to this board and to contemplate its purpose.  As to the latter question, it is clear in its statement of purpose that the board should be dedicated to the discussion of golf course architecture, presumably to further its members knowledge and enjoyment of that topic.  I know that I came here, and continue to come here, to learn what I can about the topic and to engage in presumably intelligent discourse about it.  A pleasurable byproduct has been that I have made many friends; some who I see and play golf with and others who I have yet to meet in person.

But there are things that this board should not be used for because they detract from the other purposes.  It should not be used to try to prove that the poster is "the smartest guy in the room".  It should not be used as a forum for personal attacks.  It should not be used as a means to cadge invites to courses; if someone wants to play with you he/she will let you know.

This leaves plenty of room for appropriately pointed debate on any and all topics.  But where the parties take opposite positions and rather than seeking to explain their differences resort to attacks based upon the assumption that their position is a fortiori correct and therefore their opponents are either venal or stupid (or both I suppose) there is no education being conducted and the site is cheapened.  If the opposite sides can't be reconciled, it is alright to agree to disagree and move along.  The key is to maintain civility and remember that we all share a common interest that brought us together.

Enough of my soapbox.  I just regret that the invective and other problems are driving good people away.  The real issue is that the greatest offenders either can't recognize that they are offenders or don't care.  So, notwithstanding this post, I see little hope for change.

[Mac Plumart]

Sheldon...

that was money!!!  Thanks for taking the time on that one.  Spot on.

[Jud_T]

A Fortiori: adv. For a still stronger reason; all the more.

See-We're still learning stuff here...

[Jason McNamara]

Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group.  Oops.  

I guess I don't understand the purpose of a "where the site has gone wrong" thread which decries the level of discourse and then moves immediately to a not-really-veiled dig at a single person.


That aside, if you were spammed that much with access requests, that's just embarrassing on the part of the some other participants here.  (Frankly I thought you were in Palm Springs, but maybe Riviera was before my time.  Clearly I am not following GCAccess closely enough.)

[Jeff Fortson]

Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group.  Oops.  

I guess I don't understand the purpose of a "where the site has gone wrong" thread which decries the level of discourse and then moves immediately to a not-really-veiled dig at a single person.


That aside, if you were spammed that much with access requests, that's just embarrassing on the part of the some other participants here.  (Frankly I thought you were in Palm Springs, but maybe Riviera was before my time.  Clearly I am not following GCAccess closely enough.)

Jason,

I made one vague reference to someone in an entire post dedicated to way more than that one person.  There was no veil.  I definitely threw that in there for a reason.  I think there are people on this website that detract from it.  I was one of them at times.  I removed myself when I started to recognize that I was way out of line.  

I am in Palm Springs, Palm Desert to be exact.  I worked at Riviera over 5 years ago but I was bombarded with access requests and STILL get them.  I love it when someone still asks me if I could get them out.  I should compile all these requests and make a coffee table book out of them.  I could only imagine the requests that members of high profile clubs must get on here.

Jeff F.

[Jud_T]

Jeff,

The one thing you bring up that is highly counterproductive is the access whoring.  I was not aware that it was so prevalent.  It's a shame that some here don't understand the etiquette of inviting guests/getting invited.  While I love playing great courses with great people I would never be so presumptuous to impose myself on someone's good graces.  There are plenty of opportunities to get out with guys from the site on great tracks without being a pig about it....

[Jason McNamara]

I am in Palm Springs, Palm Desert to be exact.  I worked at Riviera over 5 years ago but I was bombarded with access requests and STILL get them.  I love it when someone still asks me if I could get them out.  I should compile all these requests and make a coffee table book out of them.  I could only imagine the requests that members of high profile clubs must get on here.

I still think your initial post sort of works at cross purposes, but I've had my say, so I'll leave it there.

Anyway, you get access requests for a place you haven't been in 5 years?  Good grief.   

I think your coffee table book would make a great IMO piece:  "In my opinion, the following people need to stop trying to cadge access from fellow members:"

[George Pazin]

Final observation (I think):

A lot of the problems ascribed to this site are simply reflections of the shortcomings of any internet discussion board (and a lot smaller ones than a lot of other boards have). A great deal of any communication lies in the reader's/listener's knowledge of the poster/speaker, and especially if that knowledge is true.

One man's rude behavior is another man's simple joke. One man's impertinent question is another's honest, simple, perhaps naive question. One man's access whoring is another's plain and simple request. And on and on.

I can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me, you should have asked me, I know a member at such and such (often top notch places). I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone poke a little fun on here and the other person acted as though he had been physically assaulted.

In many ways, all of this reflects why we have the Get To Know threads - in the hopes that by getting to know each other a little better, we can get around some of the inferred slights that aren't really there. Obviously, in that sense, those threads have failed. But I will persist in the hopes that eventually folks will begin to give everyone else a break in the manner they'd like to get themselves.

There's few problems on here that can't be solved without first looking in the mirror.

In the words of my best client, chill out, man, have a beer.

[Bill Brightly]

This site is still excellent. I have learned so much in my four years as a member and I have done my best to help spread that knowledge to friends and members at my club (until their eyes start to glaze over.)

An unexpected benefit has been some great people that I got to meet a few CGA events that I attended (Beechtree going away party and Bandon this May) and I look forward to meeting many more at Mountain Ridge this September.

I am never a big fan of someone complaining about a site, a company, a golf course, or ANYTHING unless they can show me what they have done to make it better.

The lack of civility and common manners of a few is embarrassing and wrong. I had the opportunity to meet Ran this year ( a perfect Southern gentleman), and now I feel like we are guests in his house and we should act accordingly. Hmm, maybe I'll post this concept on another thread.

[Greg Clark]

This is still a wonderful forum that I nearly daily enjoy.  To me the biggest reason for the increase in bickering and repetitive subjects is the plain fact that there are now a quite small amount of new course openings compared to past years.  As a result, there is much less to discuss.  The amount of posts with pictures during development and opening of a new course, along with the multiple reviews and comparisons to other tracks as new points of discussion has been greatly diminished.

[Carl Nichols]

Actually, I am not sure that 'jump the shark' is the appropriate term anyway.

It means to turn into absurdity rather than just decline after many years. The TV show Law and Order is declining after almost 20 years, but hasn't become absurd.

I think the phrase "jumped the shark" has jumped the shark.

[Chris Shaida]

Actually, I am not sure that 'jump the shark' is the appropriate term anyway.

It means to turn into absurdity rather than just decline after many years. The TV show Law and Order is declining after almost 20 years, but hasn't become absurd.

I think the phrase "jumped the shark" has jumped the shark.

Probably so! which brings the lurking question to the surface: have threads with titles like 'Has GCA.com jumped the shark?" jumped the shark?

[Matthew Sander]

People have used this site to access whores??

In all seriousness, I wasn't aware of the blatant attempts at access. I imagine most of it comes via PMs and email. Furthermore, those with access are obviously the individuals who receive the requests, so naturally I wouldn't have noticed it. It seems a bit icky...That said, I have received standing invitations from several on this site that I hope to accept sooner or later. I only hope that someday I can be in the position to do the same for others...

[JC Jones]

I haven't seen much asking for access around here.

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