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John Moore II

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2010, 04:51:52 PM »
David: I am going to name a few of the courses from the Golf Digest 50 Toughest Golf Courses which are also GD Top 100: The Ocean Course, Oakmont, Bethpage (Black),Whistling Straits, Pine Valley, Winged Foot (West), TPC Sawgrass, Blackwolf Run, Butler National, Spyglass Hill, Pinehurst #2, Medinah #3, Yale (not GD Top 100, but Golfweek Top 100). I will use Bethpage (Black) as a good example as pretty much everyone on this site says it is a real beast; same with Yale. You tell me if these courses are good architecture?

Nice list!  With a few exceptions, I have little interest in these courses, so it shouldn't surprise you that I haven't played most of them. That should also tell you something about my tastes, or lack thereof.

I have played the Black and I've walked it a few times in the years before the first USOpen there.  So not too much exposure, but it did leave an impression or two.  I was amazed with the scale of the place and and the architectural bones, and would have loved to have played it 50 years ago, and while I cant say for sure it was probably great then.  But unfortunately in my experience a decade ago it was a boring slog with too-narrow fairways, wrist-cracking rough, fairway bunkers not anywhere near the fairways, and  flattish uninteresting greens a long, long way away.  I am generalizing of course, but there was enough of this type of thing that the course was reduced to not much more than any other long slog course with high rough and narrow fairways.    

Don't get the impression that I am advocating for easy.  I enjoy the challenges and agree that challenging golf holes are another prerequisite for an excellent golf course.   But challenge and enjoyability are not mutually exclusive, except perhaps when a course is set up like Bethpage was a decade ago.

I see where you wrote elsewhere that Bethpage is "said to be" among the "very, very best."   Let's set aside the groupthink about what is "said to be" excellent.      My question is why?  

What is excellent about any golf course where there is little or no choice off the tees except to try and hit a very narrow fairway, and where any miss could result in a lost ball or a broken wrist?    What is excellent about fairway bunkers nowhere near the fairway? What is excellent about stripping all the interest and variety out of a design to make it harder?  

More generally, what does creating a Championship Test have to do with creating an excellent golf course?  When they try to turn a great golf course into a Championship Test, aren't they much more likely to ruin the course rather than improve it?

David-I think most of your points are correct about BPB. Pinehurst #2 is the one course on that list that I have seen in person. The severe greens on that course make it hard for good players, but the way the surrounds are maintained such that average players can have fun. Was Oakmont ruined by the founders intentions of making that course as tremendous challenge? What about Pine Valley, are there not options there? And how about The Ocean Course? Is it not interesting? And The Ocean Course was said to be the hardest course in America. Lets just look at pretty much all the major publications (they're not all wrong), they all have Pine Valley, Oakmont, The Ocean Course, Winged Foot (West) and some others near the top of the list, and they all 4 seem to be among the most difficult as well. Certainly difficulty and fun/greatness are not mutually exclusive.

Although, fun means something different to everyone. I might think it is fun to be able to play a good round of golf and shoot 90 because my misses were severely punished. But I am looking to really, really improve my game, so, I'm a little different.

Frankly, I think its good to require a player to hit 70 near perfect shots in order to shoot par. But like I said, I'm different than most.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2010, 05:05:50 PM »
John...I don't know if you are different than most.  I think most golfers want that type of challenge from great courses.  This is what I mean by "entertainment" rather than "fun".  

A truly great course can entertain golfers in perpetuity (did I spell that right?).  And it is this type of entertainment that just might be at the crux of defining greatness and, perhaps, is universally recognized.  Hence, the reason why all golfing rating entities rate the same courses in their list.

"Fun" on the other hand is subjective and ever changing.  I have "fun" playing with my 6 year old son.  I have "fun" walking a quick nine hole round after work and simply de-stressing.

I am truly entertained by golf and a golf course when I lock in and focus and do battle with great courses.  When I am locked in and really playing, I want demanding shots and interesting options.  If I miss the shot, I don't want a rinky dink recovery...I want to be able to recover, but I want to earn it with a great shot...otherwise I accept the penalty for my initial error.

I might be like you in a sense.  I am striving to get better.  Three years ago I started playing.  Two years ago I was an 18.  Last year a 12.  Right now a 10.6.  I am nowhere near as good as you, but I still want the challenge as I want to earn everything I get.  I also get a sense others are like you (and me).  And again, the absolute number may not matter.  Perhaps someone is striving to be a 15 and get down from a 20.  In their mind, they want to battle (when they are truly playing serious golf) to earn their 89 much the way you want the battle with the course when you are gunning for your 71.

  
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 05:53:52 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2010, 06:08:09 PM »
George,

I personally question Tom D's premise that Oakmont is out to break anyone's back. While I personally would prefer less rough (or even no rough, as an experiment), I believe the members at Oakmont believe they are in fact highlighting the architecture of the course by presenting it in its full difficulty. It's interesting to me to look at the demands of Oakmont relative to the demands of other championship-testing courses. Oakmont is not brutally long - many of the longer holes are significantly downhill, and conditions are kept universally fast, so there is maximum roll on drives (frequently seen as a good thing on here for many different reasons). Oakmont does not generally have brutally long carries to reach the fairways or greens, as some courses do. Oakmont does not rely on water hazards and other penalty strewn hazards (which other courses rely upon far too heavily, imho). Most of the holes actually allow run up approach shots, if one so desires.

Okay, I am with you so far.   Sounds like it would be fun- I mean enjoyable- I mean entertaining.  You know what I mean.

Quote
Oakmont combines 3 principal elements to create its challenge - brutal bunkering, heavy rough, and the best green complexes in the country (come on, let's stop kidding ourselves that Augusta's or #2's are even close.... :)). Of these, I personally only see heavy rough as back breaking; I'll leave it up to others to determine if that element of Oakmont's presentation is too much. The other two elements are primary components of top notch architecture, imho. Can't see where the lesser golfer isn't capable of handling these, as long as he is not overly obsessed with score. I'd sure hate to see someone argue for dumbing down Oakmont to help lesser golfers feel better about themselves - I'd rather see golfers accept the challenges presented and forget about their score.

I am with you on the discussion of the greens and the bunkers.   I've no problem with brutal bunkering so long as there is usually a way to avoid the bunkers (at a cost, of course.)    Generally I've got no problem with fast greens except that fast greens often lead to the dumbing down of green contours, like the USGA's plan for a few of the greens at Merion.  When it comes to choosing great greens or fast greens, I go with great greens.   But you say Oakmont has great greens and I assume they aren't messing with them, so I am all with you even with really fast greens.

But where I might lose you is with the brutal rough.   I don't mind brutal rough on courses with wide fairways-- wide wide fairways--  because brutal rough can serve the same purpose as brutal bunkers, but like brutal bunkers it only works well if the golfer generally has the option to playing away from it.  This isn't the case if the fairways are narrow and the rough brutal.   So which is Oakmont?      If the fairways are narrow and the rough brutal, then how on earth could brutal rough highlight the architecture?    Or how does the club think it does?

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Should we criticise clubs for not maintaining what they have? I don't know, I take each case as individual examples, and I know very little about the specifics of each to say with any sort of authority that clubs are not doing their job as protectors. Heck, I'd lay a lot more blame on the USGA & R&A for that.

I would lay most the blame with the USGA, but there is plenty of blame to go around, so I say slam them all, the USGA, the R&A, and all the courses who have followed their lead.   It is pretty much the same group of people anyway.  

Seriously, I am not sure that slam is the right word, but let's say there is a course using brutal rough and narrow fairways in an attempt to "highlight the architecture" but the result is that they are burying the architecture under brutal rough, to the extent that even the great greens are less great.  (Great greens are only great to the extent that they work with the options presented on approach, and those options are all gone if there are narrow fairways surrounded by brutal rough.)  Isn't that course begging for a constructive critique about how they have rendered a great course less good and that they ought to change direction?  

Quote
I know you and Tom P have big problems, but I think he is right on the money with his question to Sean Arble about Fun Factor and scoring.

Tom who?   I don't know what you mean?  

I can tell you that for me scoring has absolutely nothing to do with how much (or how little) I enjoy a course.   I haven't wanted to derail the discussion but to me the best and most helpful guideline for great architecture is derived from something Macdonald wrote (big surprise, I know.)  

Golf courses should be designed, built and maintained for match play and match play only.  They should never, ever, ever be designed, built, or maintained for stroke play

This would relegate much of this garbage about whether courses are tough enough to challenge the best golfers to where such discussions really belong.   In the dust bin.    

____________________________________
 John,

Pinehurst No. 2 is one of the courses on the list that think I would love.   Except if they set it up like they did at the last open there.  That was a joke and a travesty, and is a good example of the kind of thing I am talking about.   I have mixed feelings about the Ocean Course at Kiawah and would probably have to see it in person to have a good sense of it.

As for your statement about "70 good shots"  I have trouble connecting that to anything to do with great architecture and reference you to my last comments to George above.  
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 06:13:31 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2010, 06:20:33 PM »
David M...

great post.

CBM's quote about courses should be designed for match play not for stroke play.  Help me get my arms around that.  How would the two differ?  What are the defining characteristics in a course built for match play?  And vice-vera.

I've thought about that time and again, on and off, for some time but I guess I need some extra education on the differences in terms of architecture.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2010, 06:29:25 PM »
"It is weird that for years and years, this debate has been going on and yet no one can settle on the answer to what makes a great course.  But if the same courses get ranked in our proxy as the best decade after decade, haven't we already admitted what greatness is?"


Mac Plumart:

Yes, we probably have sort of admitted what greatness is or what courses are considered to be great or great architecture since many of them have been on these opinion lists decade after decade. But are we discussing here why courses are considered great and great golf architecture or are we discussing here on this thread whether architectural superiorty and/or architectural greatness must also by necessity include a high Fun Factor or even a Fun Factor at all, and particularly for all levels of golfers?
 
 

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #105 on: July 27, 2010, 06:38:45 PM »
Tom P...

agreed.  I guess that is why I tried to make a distinction between "fun" and "entertainment" a few posts back. 

Any course can be "fun".  Great courses offer highly entertaining golf for decades on end.  At least that is the conclusion I am reaching.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #106 on: July 27, 2010, 07:01:48 PM »
"David M...

great post.

CBM's quote about courses should be designed for match play not for stroke play.  Help me get my arms around that.  How would the two differ?  What are the defining characteristics in a course built for match play?  And vice-vera.

I've thought about that time and again, on and off, for some time but I guess I need some extra education on the differences in terms of architecture."




Mac Plumart:


Personally, I would very much enjoy watching David Moriarty try to help you get your arms around that remark of C.B. Macdonald's. I would very much enjoy seeing if he knows enough about golf and golf architecture and the fascinating dynamic within both and both together as the two primary, yet vastly different formats of golf, historically and otherwise.

I'm more than willing to sit back and wait and watch to see if he is capable. If some, including myself, feel he blew it or just said, AGAIN, what he says his not his opinion but fact, then he can expect others on here, including myself, to critique and criticize his opinions and statements. That's what we do on this DG. That's what we SHOULD do on this DG. If he reacts by taking those critiques ans criticisms personally, as he seemingly always has and does, and begins insulting people again because of them, then what does that say? What does that say about him? What does that say about this DG with him on it?

So let's see what he does. Let's see what he does if others disagree with him and criticize his opinions which he usually has an interesting way of claiming are facts not just opinons while claiming everyone else owes him facts for their responses rather than their opinions! ;)

I would also like to see him offer his opinions of the entire life and times of C.B. Macdonald, clearly a man he seems to admire greatly, as he said he would some two weeks ago---qualified by the remark, 'when I get the chance.' ;)

Apparently he has the chance to endlessly argue with Mike Cirba about what does and doesn't constitute a public course and what Industry Hills is, and to continually argue with Cirba about the relative quality of Cobbs Creek----but he doesn't have the time or the chance to offer his opinion of the life and times of the fascinating C.B. Macdonald and particularly in areas of golf and otherwise that don't necessarily specifically concern just golf architecture?

Uh huh; you bet; right!?!   ;)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 07:04:20 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #107 on: July 27, 2010, 07:42:15 PM »
George,

Now I remember!  You mean that "Tom P."
"David M...

great post.

CBM's quote about courses should be designed for match play not for stroke play.  Help me get my arms around that.  How would the two differ?  What are the defining characteristics in a course built for match play?  And vice-vera.

I've thought about that time and again, on and off, for some time but I guess I need some extra education on the differences in terms of architecture."




Mac Plumart:


Personally, I would very much enjoy watching David Moriarty try to help you get your arms around that remark of C.B. Macdonald's. I would very much enjoy seeing if he knows enough about golf and golf architecture and the fascinating dynamic within both and both together as the two primary, yet vastly different formats of golf, historically and otherwise.

I'm more than willing to sit back and wait and watch to see if he is capable. If some, including myself, feel he blew it or just said, AGAIN, what he says his not his opinion but fact, then he can expect others on here, including myself, to critique and criticize his opinions and statements. That's what we do on this DG. That's what we SHOULD do on this DG. If he reacts by taking those critiques ans criticisms personally, as he seemingly always has and does, and begins insulting people again because of them, then what does that say? What does that say about him? What does that say about this DG with him on it?

So let's see what he does. Let's see what he does if others disagree with him and criticize his opinions which he usually has an interesting way of claiming are facts not just opinons while claiming everyone else owes him facts for their responses rather than their opinions! ;)

I would also like to see him offer his opinions of the entire life and times of C.B. Macdonald, clearly a man he seems to admire greatly, as he said he would some two weeks ago---qualified by the remark, 'when I get the chance.' ;)

Apparently he has the chance to endlessly argue with Mike Cirba about what does and doesn't constitute a public course and what Industry Hills is, and to continually argue with Cirba about the relative quality of Cobbs Creek----but he doesn't have the time or the chance to offer his opinion of the life and times of the fascinating C.B. Macdonald and particularly in areas of golf and otherwise that don't necessarily specifically concern just golf architecture?

Uh huh; you bet; right!?!   ;)

TEPaul,

This has been an interesting thread.  It'd be a shame if you ruined it with your petty vendetta.    You can start your own thread for that.    Besides, aren't you supposed to be off convincing Ran that I need to be removed from the website for my rude behavior? 

_________________________________________
Mac,

Now time now.  Perhaps later.


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #108 on: July 27, 2010, 08:13:25 PM »
"TEPaul,

This has been an interesting thread.  It'd be a shame if you ruined it with your petty vendetta.    You can start your own thread for that.    Besides, aren't you supposed to be off convincing Ran that I need to be removed from the website for my rude behavior?"


David Moriarty:

What vendetta are you referring to on this thread? What petty vendetta? Show me the evidence of it on this thread! Show it to any of the contributors to this thread or this website. Show it to us on this thread, Moriarty, or admit you are just unnecessarily over-reacting, AGAIN, to anything anyone, particularly me, says to you in any response that may disagree with your opinions on this thread or your opinions elsewhere on this website.

I think the time has come and long gone where you get away with just throwing up some ridiculous vendetta card every time someone, including me, disagrees with something you say. This is a discussion forum and disagreement is part of it.

If, by chance, you are referring to another thread----eg one I started about visiting site projects to learn something about golf architecture all I said to Ben Sims is that I suggest he invite you (and MacWood) to go with him to a site project for the benefit of yourselves and even this website since he said he might do that.

With that suggestion, what I got on that thread was your continuous insults about wine and dregs and such but that was not this thread.

Show me any evidence of a vendetta with you on this thread or admit to this website there hasn't been one----other than your own!  

« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 10:27:59 PM by TEPaul »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #109 on: July 27, 2010, 09:59:14 PM »
JC:

You mean this is a RANKINGS thread?  I had no idea we were talking about THAT.


Tom,

This is absolutely not a rankings thread and was never intended to be so.  You asked "on whose behalf am I pronouncing these courses great?"  I responded with us using the collective as a base for determining great.  Meaning, lets take a look at the various rankings or hell, we could use this website to see which courses the collective group has determined to be great.  This, of course, has become too complex and too abstract and has allowed for a discussion on the various merits (in your opinion) of rankings, generally, and a continued argument that the determination of great is subjective. Therefore, lets go with this:

Which courses do YOU think are great?  You listed, in the Confidential Guide, a certain list of courses that receive a 10 on the Doak scale.  What about those courses make them great?  You, for purposes of this discussion, are now the source of objectivity (and, whether you want to acknowledge it or not, you have likely had more of an influence on the collective consensus than anyone today) and the arbiter of "great."

Once we have your list, the question then becomes, do you consider all of them to be "fun"?  Do you consider any course not rated at 10 on the Doak scale to be more "fun" than any of the courses that ARE rated a 10 on the Doak scale.  I bet you do.  

Moreover, this thread isn't even remotely close to a logical or linguistic exercise in what is "great"?  It is simply a discussion on whether Course A can be determined to be better (with more golfing or architectural merit, whichever word you want to use) yet not as fun to play as Course B.  In the hypothetical, is North Berwick a better golf course than Oakmont?  This discussion would be much easier if we didn't parse the hypothetical nor the rankings.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 10:53:17 PM by JC Jones »
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2010, 10:08:48 PM »
JC - I have more than a little sympathy for your pov, and for what you're trying to get/grappling with here.  But increasingly it seems that the old saying is proving correct: "Those who know don't speak. Those who speak don't know".

Wait. That makes it sound like I'm saying you 'don't know'. I don't mean it that way. What I mean is, well, you know...

Peter (No - from now on, Silent Sam Smith, or Gary Cooper in High Noon)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 10:11:54 PM by PPallotta »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2010, 10:29:21 PM »
Mr. Pineappley goodness,

Perhaps a more appropriate saying would be "those who should know, don't and therefore obfuscate" ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2010, 10:34:32 PM »
"JC - I have more than a little sympathy for your pov, and for what you're trying to get/grappling with here.  But increasingly it seems that the old saying is proving correct: "Those who know don't speak. Those who speak don't know".

Wait. That makes it sound like I'm saying you 'don't know'. I don't mean it that way. What I mean is, well, you know...

Peter (No - from now on, Silent Sam Smith, or Gary Cooper in High Noon)"




PeterP:

That's beautiful; and the timing of it is just perfect.

You're terrific and you add so much to this site in so many ways----little AND big.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2010, 10:37:16 PM »
ah, god bless you JC - you dare speculate where we others fear to tread!  May you be justly rewarded for your courage, sort of like Captain Kirk in the old star trek episodes who went where no man had gone before.  (Just make sure you're not wearing a red-shirt - those security guys never got nothing but an untimely death...)

Coop

PS - thanks much TE, very kind of you to say.  I really like JC's threads, he just needs to to be less reticent with his opinions....
 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #114 on: July 27, 2010, 11:22:37 PM »
"TEPaul,

This has been an interesting thread.  It'd be a shame if you ruined it with your petty vendetta.    You can start your own thread for that.    Besides, aren't you supposed to be off convincing Ran that I need to be removed from the website for my rude behavior?"


David Moriarty:

What vendetta are you referring to on this thread? What petty vendetta? Show me the evidence of it on this thread! Show it to any of the contributors to this thread or this website. Show it to us on this thread, Moriarty, or admit you are just unnecessarily over-reacting, AGAIN, to anything anyone, particularly me, says to you in any response that may disagree with your opinions on this thread or your opinions elsewhere on this website.

I think the time has come and long gone where you get away with just throwing up some ridiculous vendetta card every time someone, including me, disagrees with something you say. This is a discussion forum and disagreement is part of it.

If, by chance, you are referring to another thread----eg one I started about visiting site projects to learn something about golf architecture all I said to Ben Sims is that I suggest he invite you (and MacWood) to go with him to a site project for the benefit of yourselves and even this website since he said he might do that.

With that suggestion, what I got on that thread was your continuous insults about wine and dregs and such but that was not this thread.

Show me any evidence of a vendetta with you on this thread or admit to this website there hasn't been one----other than your own!  


Petty vendettas are thread specific?    Who knew? 

____________________________________________
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #115 on: July 28, 2010, 12:22:06 AM »
"Petty vendettas are thread specific?    Who knew?"


Who knew?

With your usual knee-jerk "vendetta" response on this thread as well, where there's no evidence of it at all, apparently not you!   :P

Nevertheless, show me where any evidence of a vendetta is on this thread until you mentioned it. Can't do that can you Moriarty, and that's why you result to your usual deflection as quoted above. You're so transparent it is laughable. Again, where is any evidence of a vendetta on this thread until you mentioned it? Cant' do it, can you?  ;)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 12:32:50 AM by TEPaul »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #116 on: July 28, 2010, 11:31:22 AM »
But where I might lose you is with the brutal rough.   I don't mind brutal rough on courses with wide fairways-- wide wide fairways--  because brutal rough can serve the same purpose as brutal bunkers, but like brutal bunkers it only works well if the golfer generally has the option to playing away from it.  This isn't the case if the fairways are narrow and the rough brutal.   So which is Oakmont?      If the fairways are narrow and the rough brutal, then how on earth could brutal rough highlight the architecture?    Or how does the club think it does?

This may not make sense, because frankly I don't believe it, but I am going to attempt to read the minds of those who do... :)

There are a lot of people who believe hitting a driver straight is one of the ultimate tests in golf. For many of these people, thick rough bordering narrow fairways is the best way to test the ability to hit a driver straight.

Similarly, there are a lot of people who believe that recovery shots from thick rough test important elements of the game, so they like thick rough near hazards, greens, etc.

Finally, there are a lot of people who believe a course should be set up to test the best golfers, not the rest of us.

I don't believe any of these things. I'd love to see how Oakmont plays on rough like they had at the Women's Open, or even no rough ala Augusta (for the first 70 years... :'(). I think the ball would run to places that would require really interesting and challenging recovery shots, and even stray shots that didn't run far would still be rather difficult, off tight lies around those tremendous greens.

I don't know enough about the Oakmont membership to tell you what they are thinking, but I do believe they are doing their best to present the course as they believe Fownes intended.

-----

And as an aside, I don't think you'd place much emphasis on score, never did. My reference to the question directed at Sean was more to highlight that there are many people that do. I also think, like Mark Pearce, that people like this tend to look at difficult courses and think, there's no way a high handicapper could enjoy this place. I disagree with that line of thinking entirely and find it highly condescending.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re: The Fun Factor and Architectural Superiority
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2010, 12:43:47 PM »
"I don't know enough about the Oakmont membership to tell you what they are thinking, but I do believe they are doing their best to present the course as they believe Fownes intended."


George:

Well, I sure do, or certainly enough of those there that have pretty much administered that club in recent times. And I would completely underscore what you said in your second sentence there. They are surely doing their best to present that course as they believe Fownes intended it to be. Frankly, the course got pretty far from the way Fownes intended it to be for maybe up to four decades but they sure have dedicatedly taken it back to the way he intended it to be and had it up to the late 1940s in the last 15 years or so.

Did you know that W.C. Fownes who completely ran that club since 1935 after his father died who had completely run it since its beginning in 1903, in the late 1940s and right in the middle of some inconsequential discussion at a board meeting slide a note across the table to the Board secretary saying he was completely resigning and not just that he was going to take his entire family out of the future of the club?

Fownes apparently had a real issue with the way he saw Oakmont going as a full blown country club and away from the model he believed in for Oakmont of just a golf club along the GB model.


« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 12:46:23 PM by TEPaul »

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