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Adam Clayman

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2010, 10:08:44 AM »
Brent, I'm not arguing about knowing the distance, I'm advocating using your brain to determine it. One simple reason why it's important....? Batteries fail.

Exact yardage is the question. That's why I mentioned the bad yardages the pros get from their caddies at Pebble and Spy  How many golfers actually benefit from knowing their exact yardage?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mac Plumart

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2010, 10:11:42 AM »
I love it!!!  One of the greatest debates in all of golf in my opinion.  Of course, no one is really wrong as it boils down to personal preference.  But I will say this...
 

Adam...amen, brother!!!


"To me there's no greater satisfaction than figuring out the proper shot regardless of the actual distance."


You need to play with Wade S.  You won't forget it!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Brent Hutto

Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2010, 10:13:18 AM »
My brain will not deduce things I have no way of knowing, for instance distances over varied ground on a golf course I've never seen before. But as for "exact yardages", define "exact". If you mean plus or minus five yards, or ten, then I would argue that "exact" distance is useful.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2010, 10:23:54 AM »
Brent...please remember I am not arguing with you or trying to fight, simply answering questions and making statements...I wish we were in the clubhouse chatting, this would be a cool one.

You say your brain can't deduce things you have no way of knowing.  100% true.  But here is what I have found to be fun while not using range finders or the like.  Eyeball a shot.  Let's say you think it is 180 yards.  Upon further review, there is a pond fronting the green...so less than 180 and you are dead.  Some bunkers arranged in kind of a backstop manner behind the green, so long is preferable but still dangerous.  What shot makes the most sense?  170 to 180 or 180 to 190?  I'll go 180 to 190.  How about the wind, slope, etc.

Now, what if you've got the same shot but with a clear run up area in front of the green and deep bunkers behind the green.  How about the 170 to 180...or maybe a bump and run shot...with this scenario?

It just makes the thought process behind the shot a bit more interesting...at least to me.  If you are a thinker, which I believe you are, you might like it.  But the first few times you try it expect 4 to 5 shots will be added to your score.  But like Adam said, the satisfacation from pulling one off is pretty cool!

Anyway, if you decide against it...fine.  Have fun...bottom line.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Brent Hutto

Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2010, 10:32:12 AM »
Well I think we've about covered all the relevant issues. In your example, hitting that shot without knowing the distance would basically mean (for me) figuring on blowing it well over the green to be sure and keep it dry. And so to be perfectly clear, this is my problem with that way of playing.

If I am capable of putting the ball on the green with any kind of decent swing if I know that it's 180 yards for sure but instead I choose to "not know" the distance and hit it into one of those back bunkers that bring double, triple, who-knows-what-number into play...well, frankly that is idiotic. I'll take you guys at your word that such a situation is "fun" but to me it doesn't make any more sense than trying to play golf with one hand tied behind your back.

Hey, some people like bungee jumping and some people smoke cigars and some people play tennis instead of golf. I don't understand any of those things but I'm all for whatever floats your boat. My only objection is to the idea that somehow knowing how far I am from the hole is keeping me from fully experience the game. I think it's just an affectation.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2010, 10:44:43 AM »
Brent, Mac,

I actually disagree that your brain can't deduce things that you have no way of knowing - Your brain will grow accustomed to these things by repetition of similar circumstances.... All part of the thought process that would be encouraged by eradicating distance aids...

They were an American invention - The British rushed to copy in the 1980's when we were building "American" style resort courses... People have now forgotten that only a generation ago, they never existed.


 

Mac Plumart

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2010, 10:45:08 AM »
Brent...

"whatever floats your boat"...true that!

"My only objection is to the idea that somehow knowing how far I am from the hole is keeping me from fully experience the game."...I am not saying that at all.  I hope I didn't come across that way.  I'm saying have fun, period.

"well, frankly that is idiotic"...I've been called much worse!!!    :)

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2010, 10:59:53 AM »
Brent, It's not as much about knowing as it is figuring and being able to figure.

My trick I use is is simply counting out 20 yards at a time. When there's a hump or some elevation change in the direct line, the difficulty in figuring is increased . Even when knowing the exact yardage, these elevation changes or humps still require the knowledge of forethought to over come their simple deception.

I feel strongly that golfer's today have lost all connection with being sportsmen. It's not just golf either. I live in an area where outdoor sports are predominate. I discuss with many of the fisherman and hunters about their attitudes. To a man, they want their challenge eased. I see that desire as the root cause of the loss of the true sportsmen's credo. A credo that was prevalent when most of the classic courses we cherish were designed and built. It also explains why many of the ill-conceived changes have been made to these venerable courses over the course of the last 50-80 years.

Please don't think any one of us begrudges you your way of looking at, or, doing things. I sense we are just trying to entice you into trying it differently once in a while, and seeing if your level of satisfaction changes. That's all. And if someday your batteries fail or you forgot to download the course you are playing next, you won't be lost out there. You'll just be more challenged.

One painless way to approach learning how to do it, is to try to figure the yardage first, using your senses, and then turn to your device or caddie. Eventually, I guarantee you will be within a few yards of exact. And when you're not, there's something to analyze why you were off. Was it you, or was it the architect and/or terrain.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Steve Kline

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2010, 11:10:10 AM »
I'm saying have fun, period.


I agree with this wholeheartedly. I find knowing the distance makes the game more fun. Even after I know the distance there are still many other factors that come into play. And I still have to pull off whatever shot I'm trying to hit. Distance is one small piece of the puzzle, but one that is easily ascertained and fairly important given that we have clubs designed to go different distances. If I were to have just 3 or 4 clubs I would agree that knowing the exact distance would be less relevant (it would still be helpful and important though).

I did laugh this weekend at my club when I saw a guy who is an 18 handicapper using a range finder on every shot - even his chip when he was 25 yards off the green.


Mark Pearce

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2010, 11:12:09 AM »
Well I think we've about covered all the relevant issues. In your example, hitting that shot without knowing the distance would basically mean (for me) figuring on blowing it well over the green to be sure and keep it dry. And so to be perfectly clear, this is my problem with that way of playing.

If I am capable of putting the ball on the green with any kind of decent swing if I know that it's 180 yards for sure but instead I choose to "not know" the distance and hit it into one of those back bunkers that bring double, triple, who-knows-what-number into play...well, frankly that is idiotic. I'll take you guys at your word that such a situation is "fun" but to me it doesn't make any more sense than trying to play golf with one hand tied behind your back.

Hey, some people like bungee jumping and some people smoke cigars and some people play tennis instead of golf. I don't understand any of those things but I'm all for whatever floats your boat. My only objection is to the idea that somehow knowing how far I am from the hole is keeping me from fully experience the game. I think it's just an affectation.
And, of course, your brain can't KNOW that that's a 25mph wind from behind (at least not within the rules of golf).  So what are you going to do, hit your 180 yard club anyway, because you KNOW that it's 180 to the flag, or hit your 160 yard club despite not KNOWING how strong that wind is?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Brent Hutto

Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2010, 11:17:01 AM »
And, of course, your brain can't KNOW that that's a 25mph wind from behind (at least not within the rules of golf).  So what are you going to do, hit your 180 yard club anyway, because you KNOW that it's 180 to the flag, or hit your 160 yard club despite not KNOWING how strong that wind is?

What's that old saw about controlling what you can control, accepting what you can't and being able to tell the difference? I think you're comparing one of each.

Eric Smith

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2010, 11:18:05 AM »


I did laugh this weekend at my club when I saw a guy who is an 18 handicapper using a range finder on every shot - even his chip when he was 25 yards off the green.



Steve,

I was actually 24 yards off the green.

A. Guy

Richard Choi

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2010, 12:06:09 PM »
You play your way, I will play mine. As long as neither of us are breaking any rules or play slow, why do you care how I play?

P.S. I will argue that higher your handicap, more helpful it is to use a range finder on anything less than a full shot. Those players lack the experience/skill/knowledge to deduce the correct weight on feel shots. Using the range finder and knowing the exact yardage will help in training the brain the feel you need on those shots.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 12:24:36 PM by Richard Choi »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2010, 01:48:50 PM »
Ally - I think the timeline goes something like this for the UK.

Pre 1982 there were no measuring aids

1982 ish - a company called Birdie Golf invented a planner which was basically scorecard size, it was free to golf clubs as an advert funded the planner, most clubs gave them away.

1985 ish - pro's decided it was silly to give them away, they charged a 1. Posher planners in colour surfaced too. It started to be an industry.

1987 I met a chap at the GCSAA conference in Phoenix who sold fairway markers, he gave me the European franchise, the discs were slightly raised, red -100 white -150 blue -200 yellow -250. I installed them first a Tracy Park. It was hard to get other clubs to install them. Most clubs started to put it 150 posts or Lleanyandi trees to indicate the 150. Even worse some clubs measured to the front of the green, some middle, in Europe further complications as they used metres. a 150 yarder to the middle was 3 or 4 clubs shorter than a 150 metre to the front.

I guess we all need to know different exact distances, I think I want to know within 5 yards the distance, great players will want to know to the yard and the real elite have planners to half yards now. There is also Bernard Langher who likes to know even more detail......
BL... "how far is it to the pin"
Caddie.... "its 108 yards from the sprinkler head"
BL .... "is that from the front of the sprinkler head or the back"
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Garland Bayley

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2010, 02:29:32 PM »
... but it's the same for everyone... and part of the fun...

Doesn't sound like fun to me but if guessing games are something that you enjoy then have at it. I'd rather play golf, myself. Golf is fun.

Have you trained your eye to determine distances, and have you attempted to use said eye in determining distances. If not, then not having played this course, your criticism of this course is illegitimate.

Pat Mucci
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Scott Warren

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2010, 02:40:34 PM »
I'm usually a GPS and yardage book kind of guy, but I just played New Zealand GC today which has only 150-yard posts and didn't have my GPS or a yardage book and somehow with all those inexact estimated distances I managed to hit 12 greens and shoot 71... maybe there is something in this playing by feel/eye business...

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2010, 03:14:44 PM »
I'm usually a GPS and yardage book kind of guy, but I just played New Zealand GC today which has only 150-yard posts and didn't have my GPS or a yardage book and somehow with all those inexact estimated distances I managed to hit 12 greens and shoot 71... maybe there is something in this playing by feel/eye business...

Again, the point IS NOT that we need to know exact yardages.  I'm 58 yrs. old, and played for many, many years with only 150 markers to work off of.  The point IS that a rangefinder lets me get the same information MORE QUICKLY than pacing the yardages and doing math in my head. 


"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2010, 03:31:55 PM »
I love this type of discussion.

#3--The great Melvyn Hunter Morrow once articulated this exact distance type of argument this way to me.  When you play catch in your back yard, do you have to know the exact yardage or do you just throw the ball after you eyeball it?  When you are stopping your car at a stop sign, do you have to know the exact yardage or do you just eyeball it?  Golf is the same.  Perhaps the first few times you do it (not use yardage markers, GPS, etc) you will be off a bit, but you will get better at it over time.  Like driving or playing catch.  I think this touches base on something Brent said, his eyeballs aren't all that accurate.  Brent, if you care to...keep at it...it can be satisfying and fun.


Mac,
I've read these analogies here before; I studiously avoid threads that their originator is on because they just become silly, and these are great examples. These approach the worst analogies that I've heard of in my entire life.  

I can throw a ball 10 feet or 200 feet (or anything in between) accurately without knowing exact yardage; that much is true.  However, I do all of that WITH THE SAME DEVICE, namely my arm.  My golf clubs don't work that way because of different lengths and lofts.  My driver is pretty ineffective from 120 yds., and my PW is of little use from 400 yds., and so on.  You get the idea.  (And that doesn't even get in to the issue of how far the thrown ball would have gone if its flight hadn't been interrupted by being caught!)

Braking a car is even a worse analogy; the driver of the car can start braking at any point they want, and then increase or decrease the force applied to the pedal accordingly.  In short, I control the car right up to the moment it stops.  By contrast, once my golf ball has left my club, I had better have made the correct decision about which club to use, because I can't speed the ball up or slow the ball down in flight like I can with my car.

I imagine driving a car would be a bit more exciting (and result in even more fatalities) if the driver had to hit the brakes once for one split second (like hitting a golf ball) some guessed-at distance away and then hope that he/she had guessed right and that the car was going to stop in EXACTLY the right place before entering the intersection, or far back from the intersection leading to being rear-ended.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 03:35:18 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2010, 03:35:48 PM »
I'm usually a GPS and yardage book kind of guy, but I just played New Zealand GC today which has only 150-yard posts and didn't have my GPS or a yardage book and somehow with all those inexact estimated distances I managed to hit 12 greens and shoot 71... maybe there is something in this playing by feel/eye business...

Again, the point IS NOT that we need to know exact yardages.  I'm 58 yrs. old, and played for many, many years with only 150 markers to work off of.  The point IS that a rangefinder lets me get the same information MORE QUICKLY than pacing the yardages and doing math in my head. 




No Mr. Crockett, the point IS do not use 150 yard markers, do not waste time pacing off any yards (or reaching in to your pocket for the range finder and activating same) and do not clutter your head with unnecessary numbers... Quicker still, wouldn't you say?... And maybe even more pleasant... 

Adrian, thanks for that timeline for the UK.... So you are at fault then.... Quite recent, isn't it?

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2010, 03:43:32 PM »
I'm usually a GPS and yardage book kind of guy, but I just played New Zealand GC today which has only 150-yard posts and didn't have my GPS or a yardage book and somehow with all those inexact estimated distances I managed to hit 12 greens and shoot 71... maybe there is something in this playing by feel/eye business...

Again, the point IS NOT that we need to know exact yardages.  I'm 58 yrs. old, and played for many, many years with only 150 markers to work off of.  The point IS that a rangefinder lets me get the same information MORE QUICKLY than pacing the yardages and doing math in my head. 




No Mr. Crockett, the point IS do not use 150 yard markers, do not waste time pacing off any yards (or reaching in to your pocket for the range finder and activating same) and do not clutter your head with unnecessary numbers... Quicker still, wouldn't you say?... And maybe even more pleasant... 

Adrian, thanks for that timeline for the UK.... So you are at fault then.... Quite recent, isn't it?


And yet you say you use yardages in competitions.  Interesting...

BTW, I play more quickly if I hit the green because I used the correct club than I do if I don't know the yardage, miss the green, and have to hit extra shots.  Quicker still, wouldn't YOU say?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Brent Hutto

Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2010, 03:47:34 PM »
The whole thing reminds me of that bit in Chariots of Fire in which upper-class British athletes were expected to prevail over those from the rest of the world...but they were expected to do so without actually practicing or having coaches. To try too hard would be ungentlemanly.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2010, 03:50:20 PM »
You play your way, I will play mine. As long as neither of us are breaking any rules or play slow, why do you care how I play?

P.S. I will argue that higher your handicap, more helpful it is to use a range finder on anything less than a full shot. Those players lack the experience/skill/knowledge to deduce the correct weight on feel shots. Using the range finder and knowing the exact yardage will help in training the brain the feel you need on those shots.

Wrong again Richard! ;)

EDIT: Perhaps I should clarify. The baseball analogy is very good here. If you can throw a ball onto the green using only judgment, you can hit one on the green too. Some of the teachers that write for golf mags actually suggest making an underhanded throwing motion towards the green before hitting your shot.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 03:57:52 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2010, 03:54:30 PM »
Wrong again Richard! ;)

You can go argue with Pelz yourself. :)

I agree that comparison to throwing distance or car stopping distance is just silly. Those distances usually involve less than 100 feet. If all I was doing was hitting 100 feet shots, I wouldn't need know the yardage.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2010, 03:56:40 PM »
I'm usually a GPS and yardage book kind of guy, but I just played New Zealand GC today which has only 150-yard posts and didn't have my GPS or a yardage book and somehow with all those inexact estimated distances I managed to hit 12 greens and shoot 71... maybe there is something in this playing by feel/eye business...

Again, the point IS NOT that we need to know exact yardages.  I'm 58 yrs. old, and played for many, many years with only 150 markers to work off of.  The point IS that a rangefinder lets me get the same information MORE QUICKLY than pacing the yardages and doing math in my head.  




No Mr. Crockett, the point IS do not use 150 yard markers, do not waste time pacing off any yards (or reaching in to your pocket for the range finder and activating same) and do not clutter your head with unnecessary numbers... Quicker still, wouldn't you say?... And maybe even more pleasant...  

Adrian, thanks for that timeline for the UK.... So you are at fault then.... Quite recent, isn't it?


And yet you say you use yardages in competitions.  Interesting...

BTW, I play more quickly if I hit the green because I used the correct club than I do if I don't know the yardage, miss the green, and have to hit extra shots.  Quicker still, wouldn't YOU say?


Brent, please - Do I need to anwer that one about "competing" a third time?

As for the slow play issue, you are taking one almighty guess there. I said at the beginning of this thread that if someone could give me solid proof that cutting out distance aids would add time to a round, then I would see that as a legitimate reason to keep them.... I suspect (that means guess) that the time saved from not having to seek out and pace yardages exceeds that lost from misclubbing a couple of times a round... But until someone does a study, I don't know... Neither do you...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 03:58:15 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Knowing the exact distance to the hole...........
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2010, 03:58:45 PM »
I'm usually a GPS and yardage book kind of guy, but I just played New Zealand GC today which has only 150-yard posts and didn't have my GPS or a yardage book and somehow with all those inexact estimated distances I managed to hit 12 greens and shoot 71... maybe there is something in this playing by feel/eye business...

Again, the point IS NOT that we need to know exact yardages.  I'm 58 yrs. old, and played for many, many years with only 150 markers to work off of.  The point IS that a rangefinder lets me get the same information MORE QUICKLY than pacing the yardages and doing math in my head. 




No Mr. Crockett, the point IS do not use 150 yard markers, do not waste time pacing off any yards (or reaching in to your pocket for the range finder and activating same) and do not clutter your head with unnecessary numbers... Quicker still, wouldn't you say?... And maybe even more pleasant... 

Adrian, thanks for that timeline for the UK.... So you are at fault then.... Quite recent, isn't it?


And yet you say you use yardages in competitions.  Interesting...

BTW, I play more quickly if I hit the green because I used the correct club than I do if I don't know the yardage, miss the green, and have to hit extra shots.  Quicker still, wouldn't YOU say?


Brent, please - Do I need to anwer that one about "competing" a third time?

As for the slow play issue, you are taking one almighty guess there. I said at the beginning of this thread that if someone could give me solid proof that cutting out distance aids would add time to a round, then I would see that as a legitimate reason to keep them.... I suspect (that means guess) that the time saved from seeking out and pacing yardages exceeds that lost from misclubbing a couple of times a round... But until someone does a study, I don't know... Neither do you...

Actually, the studies involving rangefinders HAVE been done, and discussed here.  They were quite conclusive, by the way.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

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