[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,

Is it thought that the presence of distance markers ( and particularly range finders I suppose) by providing the distance to the centre of a green (or the exact distance to the pin) remove the element of deception on a golf hole and reduce (negate?) the golf course architect’s ability to fool or cloud the mind of the “average” golfer using distance perception tricks of the trade?

Colin

[Jeff_Brauer]

Colin,

If it is really done well it can still play with you. I will never forget the hole at Shadow Creek in Vegas where Faz used forced perspective. I was standing by a sprinkler saying 141 and I still said it looked like 165 and over clubbed.

[Simon Holt]

Colin- you have just opened Pandora's box.  Good luck!

[Adam Clayman]

Colin. Only on a soft canvas is that exact distance going to help a better golfer. On a firm undulating canvas the precise distance is the last thing every type of player would want to know. Why else have we heard all the bitching after the USGA has kept the canvas dry? '04 and '10 come to mind where the non sportsman has cried out their tell tale rap of "unfair".

[Wade Schueneman]

Colin, I prefer to ignore distance markers (and yardage books) for the very reason that you mentioned.  It introduces another skill that the golfer must develop and provides another tool for the clever architect.  My personal preference is to handicap myself even further. carrying only 7 clubs.  This means that I am having to craft shots by feel on almost every approach.  I imagine that anyone who has seen me play would note that additional handicaps are unecessary, but I still think it enhances the FUN!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Colin,

Yes, Yes, Yes....

Although I happen to agree with Jeff that when very well done, it can still mess with your mind... Portmarnock has some great deceptive bits of dead ground (3rd, 13th, 17th holes especially).... A more modern example that I think is very good is Tim Liddy's bunker redesign at St.Andrews Dukes...

I also try and do what Wade says - Ignore distance markers at all opportunities...

[JC Jones]

I see nothing wrong with yardage approximations to the center of the green (i.e. a white plate at 150, red at 100 and blue at 200).

As far as exact yardage, I'm not good enough to execute to an exact yardage with any regularity so the added information would not be as beneficial to me as it is to others.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Considering those yardage approximations at 100, 150 and 200 are very often wrong, then why bother?

I'm sorry JC, I'm with Melvyn on this one... The whole yardage marker invention is relatively new anyway...

If someone can show me concrete evidence that yardage markers assist with (as oppose to hinder) slow play, then that's the only thing that will sway me...

[Bill_McBride]

Knowing the approximate distance is just the first of many variables the experienced golfer must factor into club selection.  Wind direction and velocity, elevation change, firmness of the ground, humidity, altitude.....whew, how do we ever pull a club?

On the other hand, knowing the precise distance to the pin can lead to some really stupid decisions and over reliance on the aerial game!

[Mac Plumart]

Frankly, playing with distance knowledge and without makes the game totally different.  Both are a ton of fun, simply different.  As Wade mentioned, playing without distance aids of any kind adds in a new dimension regarding skill required to play the game.  Some will find it frustrating to eye-ball a shot that you think is 160, grab your club and strike to ball spot on, only to find it is 20 yards long or short.  But as frustrating as that can be, eyeballing a shot and hitting the green spot on the mark is equally as satisfying in my opinion.

My only 2 cents would be to give both a try every now and again and see which one you like.  Golf is meant to be fun (for non-professionals and/or tournament players)...see what you think is more fun.

[Brad Wilbur]

Don't yardage markers level the playing field between a person playing their home course and the first time guest?

[Dan Herrmann]

Play a Flynn course - distances mean little due to his use of elevation changes.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think overall it does take quite a lot away from the architecture. Jeff is right that you can create a degree of doubt in a players mind but probably not a GOOD players mind.

I am just about to open a new course where I have some tough angles to come in from if the drive is loose, if they know the exact yardage its going to make those shots some much easier. I want NO yardage markers or GPS but its a very minority opinion, almost everyone wants to know the distance these days especially on courses they have not played before, I played Saturday and found myself wanting to know the exact distance every time.

[Steve Kline]

After the first play any observant golfer is at least aware of the deception. However, when it is done well the deception can still throw you off on repeated plays. I like knowing my exact yardage all the time on courses I play - even if it is firm and fast. It doesn't mean I'm going to fly it that far but it helps me create a picture of what I'm trying to do. There are lots of things to consider - wind, yardage, bounce/roll, fade/draw, trajectory. Yardage is just one part of all of that. All that said, I've played plenty without yardages and just using 100, 150, and 200 yard plates as a rough guide. However, I found this difficult in the UK because of the lack of trees and the shorter flags that messed with my normal depth perception.

[Tim Gavrich]

I would like to add (Steve Kline's post alludes to this) that one can still (and SHOULD still) hit creative shots knowing the exact distance to the hole.  But for most golfers (those with handicaps about 10 or so), knowing the exact yardage is almost totally unnecessary.  An approximation is good enough.  I play in college with a lot of guys who have rangefinders and who do know exactly the yardage on most shots, and I feel like I am ad a slight disadvantage since I don't have one, at least on relatively unfamiliar golf courses.  But I take pride in the fact that I'm more comfortable with yardage uncertainty than the vast majority of my handicap-peers (i.e. college/amateur tournament-type players).

[John Moore II]

Having exact distances can change perception and deception, but some times the best of those deceptions come from the tee where people are less likely to use a distance finder. I have played courses where the nearest tree or other 'distance aide' might have been 1500 yards away or more and it is really hard to determine by sight how far it is to carry a bunker or something of that sort. And like I said, people are less likely to have a range finder on the tee. But for what its worth, I think you need to know at least generally what the yardage is. You don't need to know that you have 132 yards, but its pretty necessary to know that you have somewhere between 125 and 135.

And lets not forget that range finders might not always be calibrated correctly. I was playing a few weeks ago with a guy who hit shots way short of the hole on the first 2 holes of the day until he realized that his range finder was not giving him the correct yardage. So, then it was fairly pointless for him to have it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'm actually surprised by some of the statements here.

Why do you need to know the approximate distance to the pin?... We only introduced the 150 yard marker about 20 years ago in the UK... Has it become that much of a crutch?

As someone stated, they aid the good golfer and not the bad... They take away a mental aspect of the game... and they are another reason that "feel" is eradicated as a skill... Not to mention effectively tying one of the architect's arms behind his back...

I can assure you, you soon get that old feeling back after just a few rounds without... and sure you miss a few distances... but it's the same for everyone... and part of the fun... Just make yourself better than the next guy at judging distances... You should have one step up already being keenly interested in GCA and the golf course as a living breathing entity...

Ally "Melvyn Morrow" McIntosh

[Brent Hutto]

... but it's the same for everyone... and part of the fun...

Doesn't sound like fun to me but if guessing games are something that you enjoy then have at it. I'd rather play golf, myself. Golf is fun.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ally - I think the problem is yet another case of the opinion on here is in the real world a very minority one. We do live in a world of buggys and exact distances.... In the commercial world of trying to make a golf course break even you just cant afford to miss out on people not wanting to play your course because you dont conform to other 2010 courses.

Our new course is loosey open to members the comments mainly are "its going to be good, just need to get the yardage markers out there".

[Andy Troeger]

I grew up playing golf with yardage markers and so admittedly that's part of the game for me. I've played a few rounds where they were not available for whatever reason and I did fine without them for the most part--I do think some courses make knowing exact yardages more important than others. I'm not one that needs an exact number, but its nice to get some kind of approximation. Golf is fun and plenty challenging with yardage markers for my tastes.

[John Moore II]

I'm actually surprised by some of the statements here.

Why do you need to know the approximate distance to the pin?... We only introduced the 150 yard marker about 20 years ago in the UK... Has it become that much of a crutch?

As someone stated, they aid the good golfer and not the bad... They take away a mental aspect of the game... and they are another reason that "feel" is eradicated as a skill... Not to mention effectively tying one of the architect's arms behind his back...

I can assure you, you soon get that old feeling back after just a few rounds without... and sure you miss a few distances... but it's the same for everyone... and part of the fun... Just make yourself better than the next guy at judging distances... You should have one step up already being keenly interested in GCA and the golf course as a living breathing entity...

Ally "Melvyn Morrow" McIntosh

I am actually fine with just a 150 mark. That was you can at least figure a rough yardage. But if a course is built with greens elevated 3-4 feet above the surrounding grade with bunkers all around, yeah, it becomes necessary to know a fairly precise yardage. And that is how many courses in America are built.

[A.G._Crockett]

Deleted.

[Mac Plumart]

My friend was playing golf a few weeks ago with the aid of his range finder.  But he kept over hitting shots time and time again.  He thought his range finder was broken or mis-calibrated, but by hole 8 or so he learned he had it set to meters not yards.  Funny!  

Is this the original premise of the thread?  AG seems so passionate about range finders, I thought I would continue to add value to the thread with that comment.  

EDIT...C'mon AG, you can't do that to me.  Delete your post after I post some brilliant comedy.  Man, oh man, oh man. 

[A.G._Crockett]

My friend was playing golf a few weeks ago with the aid of his range finder.  But he kept over hitting shots time and time again.  He thought his range finder was broken or mis-calibrated, but by hole 8 or so he learned he had it set to meters not yards.  Funny!  

Is this the original premise of the thread?  AG seems so passionate about range finders, I thought I would continue to add value to the thread with that comment.  

EDIT...C'mon AG, you can't do that to me.  Delete your post after I post some brilliant comedy.  Man, oh man, oh man. 

Sorry, Mac.  I let things get the best of me, wrote a rant, thought better of it, deleted it.  All within about 10 minutes...

Honestly, though, this rangefinder thing is a dead horse of the first magnitude.  I play a LOT of golf with a lot of different people, including many who truly love good GCA, and I don't know ONE who doesn't want a yardage.  Not one!  My son caddies and forecaddies for a summer job; how many players do you suppose don't want a yardage from him?  The next one will be the first!

Given that, rangefinders are just a faster way to get a number.  Hell yes, it's a precise number!  Rangefinders have been that way since they were first developed for hunters.  Can you imagine a rangefinder, as a product, that gave approximate numbers?

Here's my first Christmas wish:  For the rest of 2010, I don't see a single poster on GCA.com passing off rubbish about rangefinders and distances as actual analysis of golf or GCA.  It is tired, weak, and laughable.  Don't do it; it's over, done, decided.  Move on, already, or join the Flat Earth Society or the Man Will Never Fly League.

There, I ranted and threadjacked anyway.  See what you've done?

[Steve Kline]

Ally - in no way does knowing exact yardages eradicate feel. You still have to have feel and the ability to pull off whatever shot you trying to hit. There are plenty of times I have played a cut to take off 2-3 yards from a shot. Sure, for most people that doesn't matter, but for me it does. Also, should caddies be banned? They help you overcome the deception of the architect. And caddies have been around since the start of the game.

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