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John Blain

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Aronimink or Merion?
« on: July 04, 2010, 08:03:16 PM »
Seems like Aronimink is much more of a modern day U.S. Open course than Merion, no? Other than the fact that David B. Fay wants to prove to the world that the USGA hasn't lost control of the equipment is there any good reason why they would go to Merion when they could have gone right down the road to Aronimink?

Don't get me wrong, Merion has lots of history, etc. but there comes a time when you just aren't a viable US Open site anymore. Doesn't mean you aren't a great course or club anymore but times change....

-John
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JNC Lyon

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2010, 08:38:07 PM »
If the US Open was played free of spectators, I could not imagine a better test of golf than Merion.  It forces players to hit all different types of shots.  The long par fours still remain long, especially at holes 5, 14, and 18.  The greens are the real test at Merion, meaning the golf course will always stand up to technology.

However, it seems Merion is a very tight fit for a big tournament.  The course held up okay against the onslaught of galleries in the Walker Cup.  Yet we should remember that the Walker Cup allows for much more flexible gallery movement.  The course was only roped off around the greens, and there were only a few groups on the course each day.  This situation meant that we could wander the fairways comfortably without any sense of claustrophobia.  This will not be the case at the US Open, where all playing areas will be roped off, meaning a very cramped affair for galleries of US Open size.  Furthermore, problems areas during the Walker Cup, such as between 3 and 6, will only be more pronounced with more people.

The golf course itself is not out of date.  A golf course does not need to be a death march of long par fours to be a US Open test.  However, the size of property at Merion is a great cause for concern.
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Dan Herrmann

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2010, 09:03:23 PM »
Merion.  As one of our own said at a local Philly GCA get-togehter, "It's friggin Merion!".
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2010, 11:44:10 PM »
Both have their pros and cons.

I found Aronimink too difficult, too long, especially at a natural par 70.
And, if you duplicated Merion's rough at Aronimink, you'd be hard pressed to finish the round.

Merion, without killer rough would offer little in the way of challenge for the best golfers in the world.

For me, I'd prefer Merion with reasonable rough.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2010, 11:47:50 PM by Patrick_Mucci »
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Ivan Lipko

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2010, 07:43:15 AM »
It's hard for me to judge about the US  Open thing but my own personal preferences are strongly on the side of Merion. I mean it's one of the greatest and purest courses in the world. Aronimink while being great and challenging is just not my type of course.

I'd love to play both, BTW. ;D
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2010, 08:08:31 AM »
John_Lyon,

Do you really think 18 will stand up to the pros?  The only way it will, is if they take driver out of their hands.  Even then, with Jeff Overton hitting 320 yard three metals at Aronimink yesterday, they'll have 9 iron or wedge in, even at 480 yards from a new back tee (if they were to build one.)

Tonawanda...give me a little more than "it's friggin Merion."  I was there in September for two day...I know what it's like as a Walker Cup venue, but remember that the last time the Open was there, Jim Thorpe led after round one and you were putzin around Sheridan (unless you're way older than I am!!!!!)

Having said that, skip the Opens at Congressional and Olympic (unless they more the Olympic one to San Fran GC) and wake me up in 2013.  Can't wait to see that course again.
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Kevin Pallier

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2010, 08:14:29 AM »
Aronimink proved to be a good tournament venue and could easily host a US Open. However - it's not one that would inspire me nor one I think I would enjoy playing on a week to week basis. Merion on the other hand....
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Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 08:35:08 AM »
If Merion can get fortunate and have similar weather before and during the tourney in 2013, it will be a fantastic event.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2010, 08:40:25 AM »
I predict that Amink will host the PGA before the end of this decade.


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Jeff Dawson

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 10:04:35 AM »
From the new tees Merion is the same length as Pebble Beach and longer than Shinnecock. 
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Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2010, 12:15:28 PM »
Aronimink compared to Merion??  You must be shittin me.  Merion is the stuff of last venue in your life.  AMink is just hard hard hard.  Most every hole beats you up.  Can you imagine being a member there and being squashed like a bug day in day out?  No thanks.  Give me Merion by a country mile.  JC
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Matt_Ward

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2010, 12:30:46 PM »
Jonathan:

Isn't that what Oakmont does too ?

The question is would the PGA come to Phila again ?

Given their recent site selections I have to wonder.
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jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2010, 01:17:41 PM »
Let me say upfront that I love Merion, and I hope it shows well during the Open. However, given what the USGA seems to want these days, it could be that Aronimink might be better suited for an Open. It clearly is better logistically.

From what I saw last weekend, Aronimink can challenge the best players in the world without over-the-top rough. I doubt that Merion can.
We probably will never know, because I assume the rough at Merion will be very deep. That will be needed to satisfy the USGA obsession with keeping the winning score around par.

This is not intended as a criticism of Merion, rather a commentary on the USGA. I can not imagine why any great classic club like Merion would want to host the Open. I think there are several clubs whose memberships have either reached that conclusion or are near to doing so. The most aggressive contenters seam to be resorts, public, and new courses who need and want the exposure. Merion, and clubs like it, do not.
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2010, 01:33:37 PM »
Ron,
Merion is simply one of this planet's best golf courses.  Aronimink is very, very good, but it's not Merion.

Every shot of Merion is special and memorable.  The routing is first rate, the greens are among the world's best, and the sense of history is overwhelming.

If you remember, Jim Thorpe was on every US Open leaderboard back then.  Having JT as a first round leader is in no way a knock on Merion's greatness.  After all, I don't exactly remember him winning.

Having been there for the US Am in '95, I can tell you that no lead will be safe.  Yeah, that was match play, but the medal rounds weren't exactly lighting the place up.  

I think Merion's biggest issues in '13 will be gallery logistics.  But they'll be fine with limited ticketing.  That said, having seen the crowds following Tiger at 'Mink, I don't think there will be much ability to follow a Tiger-type guy from the 1st tee to the 18th green.   

I am curious as to the number in the gallery for the '30 US Am championship match.   

But that has NOTHING to do with the greatness of Merion or the excellence of Aronimink.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 01:35:31 PM by Dan Herrmann »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2010, 03:22:48 PM »
Dan Herrmann,

I'm not so sure that I'd classify any routing as being great when it has crossovers.

I really like Merion, sans the heavy rough, but, let's not go overboard and attribute greatness to every aspect of the course when it has some flaws or demerits
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2010, 03:28:21 PM »
Patrick,
Given its boundary constraints, I think its routing is masterful.  However, your point is well taken, but I admit to a bit of an unrequited love affair with the place ;)
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Jeff Dawson

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2010, 03:46:37 PM »
Jim-

Interestingly enough the rough plays easier when there are spectators.  It simply gets trampled down and the ball lays on top.  At least that's what happened during the am and Walker Cup.  I suspect the same will happen during the open.  During the am there where several comments being made that the rough was too easy because of this.  Never the less only two people broke par during stroke play.  I played Aronimink two weeks ago and Merion the day before.  While the rough was longer at Aronimink, the rough at Merion was thicker and much more difficult to play out of.  It will be interesting to see how the USGA sets the rough up.
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Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2010, 06:22:56 PM »
Jeff,
Remember - in the Walker Cup and the '05 US Am, spectators had free reign.  In the '13 Open, ropes will be omnipresent and will keep the gallery from many parts of the course. 
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Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2010, 07:31:04 PM »
Quote from: Jonathan Cummings on July 05, 2010, 12:15:28 PM
Aronimink compared to Merion??  You must be shittin me.  Merion is the stuff of last venue in your life.  AMink is just hard hard hard.  Most every hole beats you up.  Can you imagine being a member there and being squashed like a bug day in day out?  No thanks.  Give me Merion by a country mile.  JC

As a matter of fact, i can imagine it!  And, it's not as bad as you think!!!  Full disclosure: I am an AGC member, and Merion East is my favorite golf course (haven't played any of the LI clubs).  Merion is so unique that it's unfair to compare any course to it.  Aronimink is a great championship course, as well as a great members course.  One hits every club in the bag a number of times, is presented with loads of different and unique recovery shots, and putts on some of the BEST greens anywhere designed by anyone.  PERIOD. 
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JNC Lyon

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2010, 08:06:19 PM »
Quote from: Ronald Montesano on July 05, 2010, 08:08:31 AM
John_Lyon,

Do you really think 18 will stand up to the pros?  The only way it will, is if they take driver out of their hands.  Even then, with Jeff Overton hitting 320 yard three metals at Aronimink yesterday, they'll have 9 iron or wedge in, even at 480 yards from a new back tee (if they were to build one.)

Tonawanda...give me a little more than "it's friggin Merion."  I was there in September for two day...I know what it's like as a Walker Cup venue, but remember that the last time the Open was there, Jim Thorpe led after round one and you were putzin around Sheridan (unless you're way older than I am!!!!!)

Having said that, skip the Opens at Congressional and Olympic (unless they more the Olympic one to San Fran GC) and wake me up in 2013.  Can't wait to see that course again.

18 should stand up.  I saw guys hitting long irons and woods into 18 during the Walker Cup.  However, firm and fast Open conditions might change that.  Either way, I believe the wild land and the car-hood green are the best defenses for Merion's finish, not the length.
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Jeff Dawson

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2010, 08:47:25 PM »
Dan

Yes I do remember.  However, with limited space for spectators they won't be able to protect much.  It may be interesting if a shot further off line has a better lie than one just a little off line.  Either way it will be fun to watch the best players in the world play Merion.
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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2010, 03:46:44 AM »
Most of the responses seem to be aimed at which is a better golf course.    I read the question as asking which is a better course to host a US Open.   These seem like two very questions to me.  

I didn't see the recent Amateur in person, but watching it on television left me wondering about the very idea of hosting a US Open at Merion.   If, in order to get Merion ready for the US Open, they have to soften green slopes, grow outrageous and nearly unplayable rough, narrow the fairways even more than they have already been narrowed, and make silly changes like playing the third hole par 3 from 280+ yards while reducing the par 4 10th to a mid-to-long iron par 3, then I wonder whether the course that ends up hosting the US Open should even be considered the true Merion.  Certainly that wouldn't really be the course that everyone is praising in this thread, is it?  

If Aronimink could host the US Open without such drastic measures, then perhaps the original post has some merit.

Here is the post again . . .

Quote from: JPBlain on July 04, 2010, 08:03:16 PM
Seems like Aronimink is much more of a modern day U.S. Open course than Merion, no? Other than the fact that David B. Fay wants to prove to the world that the USGA hasn't lost control of the equipment is there any good reason why they would go to Merion when they could have gone right down the road to Aronimink?

Don't get me wrong, Merion has lots of history, etc. but there comes a time when you just aren't a viable US Open site anymore. Doesn't mean you aren't a great course or club anymore but times change....

-John
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 10:49:45 AM by DMoriarty »
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TEPaul

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2010, 08:58:09 AM »
Reducing the par 4 11th at Merion in the US Open to a mid to long iron par 3???   ::) ???

This remark from a man who actually purports on here to know something about the history and architecture of Merion East (Viz; the ridiculous essay "The Missing Faces of Merion")? GOD HELP us!   ::) Is there any way at all to minimize the contributions of people like this on here?   ;)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 09:03:03 AM by TEPaul »
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Dan Herrmann

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Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2010, 09:31:43 AM »
David,
I suggest you watch the USGA film that chronicles the '82 US Open.  I don't think Merion will have any issues based on viewing that film and film from the '30 US Am.

Tom is correct - there's absolutely no way 11 could play as you suggest.
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TEPaul

Re: Aronimink or Merion?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2010, 09:59:42 AM »
"If, in order to get Merion ready for the US Open, they have to soften green slopes, grow outrageous and nearly unplayable rough, narrow the fairways even more than they have already been narrowed,"


Dan:

With his comments on rough and narrowed fairways apparently this guy isn't even aware of the interesting changes that have been made in the last few years in US Open set-ups in what is now being heralded as "The Era of Mike Davis."
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