[Bill_McBride]

That is what is nice about Tom updating the list as we go along.  Anyone can skip the 13 pages and still get the information.   I wish I had thought of that.   

I think for now the list excludes resort courses.  But there are a few privately owned pay-as-you-play courses and I assume there is a blurry area somewhere between the two.   This sounds like a resort course, though.

When it opened,it was an "amenity" for the resort.  I think the Sonoma Mission Inn closed during the Depression, so at that point the golf course was probably public.  It definitely was purely public when I was a kid and played there a lot (1957-1978).  Now it is again a resort amenity, plus having a high dollar private membership.

[Tom MacWood]

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark  (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones  (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)  (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

[Tom MacWood]

To save me the agony of going through the 13+ previous pages  , does anyone know if Sonoma Golf Club (1928-Sam Whiting) should be on this list?

According to their website, "It was Sam Whiting who took the former J. K. Bigelow ranch and fashioned an 18-hole jewel that was first named the Sonoma Mission Inn Golf and Country Club to capitalize on the historic lore and romance of the Sonoma Valley and to serve as a prestigious amenity for the popular resort."

So it was somewhat open to the public but perhaps the resort affiliation keeps it off this thread's list.

It's a lovely place:  http://www.sonomagolfclub.com/pages/home.html

Bill
I'm pretty sure it was a resort course. I've seen it referred to as the Mission Inn GC and Boyes Hot Springs Hotel GC.

[Tom MacWood]

Here are a couple views of the 18th green at Hershey Park. The Pennsylvania Public Links championship was played on the this course for decades.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is an aerial of Pickwick in Chicago which was originally posted by Dan Moore.

[JC Jones]

Typical "Fool Me Once" Cirba.  When he doesn't like where the thread is going he throws a little hissy fit, even messing with the title of the thread.  It's the gca.com equivalent of kicking over the gameboard or trying to take his ball and go home.

Which board game involves a ball?

. . . kicking over the gameboard OR trying to take his ball and go home.

Yes, I see that.  It was an attempt to lighten the mood.

[Tom MacWood]

I've added Montebello Park and Cobbs Creek.

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting  (San Francisco, Ca)
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie   (Sacramento, Ca)
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie   (Pacifica, Ca)
Griffith Park-Wilson (1915/1923) - T.Bendelow & G.Thomas   (Los Angeles, Ca)
Griffith Park-Harding (1915/1925) - T. Bendelow & G.Thomas  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke   (Oakland, Ca)
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell  (Pasadena, Ca)
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell  (Los Angeles, Ca)
Montebello Park (1928) - M.Behr  (Montebello, Ca.)
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson  (Colorado Springs, Co)
Cleveland Heights (1925) - W.Flynn  (Lakeland, Fl)
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross  (Jacksonville, Fl)
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark  (Mt. Plymouth, Fl)
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn  (Miami, Fl)
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen  (St. Petersburg, Fl)
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross  (Savannah, Ga)
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead  (Lockport, Il)
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil  (Glencoe, Il)
Palos Park (1919) - T.Bendelow  (Palos Park, Il)
Pickwick (1927) - J.Roseman  (Glenview, Il)
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie  (W.Chicago, Il)
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff  (Rockford, Il)
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford  (Davenport, Ia)
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson  (Des Moines, Ia)
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell  (LaPorte, In)
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell  (Indianapolis, In)
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil  (South Bend, In)
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay  (Louisville, Ky)
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles  (Portland, Me)
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook  (Baltimore, Md)
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson  (Charlevoix, Mi)
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross  (Detroit, Mi)
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Keller (1929) - P.Coates  (St. Paul, Mn)
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis  (Minneapolis, Mn)
Gulf Hills (1927) - J.Daray  (Biloxi, Ms)
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast  (Kansas City, Mo)
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis  (St. Louis, Mo)
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie  (Bayside, NY)
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet  (Garden City, NY)
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek  (Staten Island, NY)
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek  (Bronx, NY)
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones  (Rochester, NY)
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast  (Farmingdale, NY)
Asheville Muni (1927) - D.Ross  (Asheville, NC)
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek  (Greensboro, NC)
Community (1912) - W.Hoare  (Dayton, Oh)
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross  (Youngstown, Oh)
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves  (Cleveland, Oh)
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson  (Cleveland, Oh)
Ridgewood (1924) - S.Alves  (Parma, Oh)
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber  (Canton, Oh)
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan  (Portland, Or)
Cobbs Creek (1916) - H.Wilson   (Philadelphia, Pa)
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy  (Hershey, Pa)
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn  (Allison Park, Pa)
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler  (Hermitage, Pa)
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast  (Jamestown, RI)
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross  (Providence, RI)
Stevens Park (1924)                     (Dallas, TX)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke  (Dallas, Tx)
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast  (San Antonio, Tx)
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus  (Houston, Tx)
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan  (Spokane, Wa)
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James  (Seattle, Wa)
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen  (Milwaukee, Wi)
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris  (Janesville, Wi)
Lawsonia (1930) - W.Langford  (Green Lake, Wi)

[JC Jones]

Tom,

Belvedere was not public when it opened.  My recollection was it opened for public play in the 60's but I'd have to go back and check.

[Dan Herrmann]

.

[Tom MacWood]

California had an inordinate number of golf courses period for a state of its size. Climate, a lot of available land (and lot of interesting sites), money and vacationers were probably factors. The state had relatively few golf courses through the 1910s, so all that growth occurred during the golden age and they had many talented architects based out there during that time, and the result was a lot of quality golf courses.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,  
I thought when you threw your last childish fit and stormed off in a huff you invited us to continue on discussing the matter as we saw fit?  So why is it that you are still trying to sabotage what has turned into a very interesting and informative thread?

Dan Herrmann,
Yours was in interesting question worth exploring.  Why did you delete it?   Surely the Philadelphia Posse is at it again, trying to control conversations in which they won't even participate.  I am sorry to see you are behaving like just another lackey.
____________________________________

For those that missed it, Dan had asked about the abundance of California Courses on the list.   I agree with the reasons Tom mentioned, and emphasize it was largely a matter of timing.  The listed California courses opened between 1923 and 1935, near the end of whichever period we are discussing.   Had the cut-off been a little earlier, then the Mid-West would have most likely been the stongest region, as almost 1/2 of the public courses in existence in 1920 were reportedly located in the Midwest.    Had the cutoff been earlier still, only those cities with very early public courses would be represented.  

As for the demographics behind the timing, it is hard to imagine that in 1900 Los Angeles had a population of just over 100,000, less than cities like Paterson NJ, Fall River MA,  And St. Joseph MO.  The entire state only had about 1.5 million people, less than Chicago.  The population really took off thereafter, and much of California was booming in the 1920s, when many of the public golf courses were built.

Also as Tom mentioned,  by the time golf design really took off in California, the golden age was arguably at its peak and there happened to be a congregation of excellent architects working in the state.  Many of California's great courses became great in the 1920s, and this goes for public courses as well as private.  Behr, Thomas, MacKenzie, Bell, and Watson were all designing courses in California during this time, and all designed public courses.

Another important factor was irrigation technology.  Much of California was too dry to maintain all grass golf courses without extensive irrigation.  As irrigation became more advanced, common, and affordable, golf in California flourished.  

I am not sure this is the case, but I get the feeling from looking at some of the old literature, that public courses were viewed differently in the West than in the East.  In the East it seems like perhaps there was an attitude among the golfing establishment that while public courses served a purposes, they were by no means anywhere near the quality of the private courses and they weren't really intended to be.   In the West, I am not so sure that was the prevailing viewpoint.   But then this could be a product of the timing of the respective regions courses.  

Ironically, the timing that led to many of the many good municipal courses in California also lead to the creation of many very good private and daily fee courses that ultimately didn't survive the depression and post war expansion.  

All that being said, it is possible that California is simply overrepresented on the list.   All the courses listed CA courses belong, but I cannot help but think there are more courses out there that should be on the list, but aren't yet.  The late edition of a course like Lawsonia seems a perfect example of how an apparently worthy course can almost be overlooked, and I wouldn't be surprised if we come up with others that, in retrospect, will seem obvious.  

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a map of Beavertail from Daniel Wexler's Missing Links.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Belvedere was not public when it opened.  My recollection was it opened for public play in the 60's but I'd have to go back and check.

This is from the 1926 Golf Course Guide, and it continued to be listed that way through the last Guide in 1931. It was a daily fee course in Fifties too.

[Tom MacWood]

.

Dan
You must have gotten the memo late. 

[DMoriarty]

Back on the first page of this discussion, Kyle Harris tried to turn Mike's hyperbolic boasting into a positive discussion about early quality design.   At that point, I responded . . . .

Kyle,

I appreciate your attempts to turn this conversation into something positive, but Mike Cirba has no interest in actually discussing the top pre-1936 public courses in the country, not unless he can easily be twisted into something that fits his agenda.    

I'd be very interested in an intelligent conversation of the early quality public designs, but Mike Cirba has no place in that conversation!

Mike, your immature efforts to derail the thread continue to prove me correct.  But enough already.  Fix the title of the thread and move along.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Beavertail was neither a municipal golf course nor was it a public course. It was a private course that allowed public play. Unfortunately I am away from home and cannot access my files, but I already posted this information earlier in the thread whcih you seem to have ignored. Tilly built it on the private estate of a gentleman (whose name escapes me but is mentioned in my original post), the Golf Club's clubhouse was in the front parlor of his home. He allowed public play simply for the monies it generated. The public came last in every peckingorder and so on the occasions where there was club tournament's or heavy club play the public couldn't get on the course...

I don't believe it fits the definition of "municipal" golf course in any way as that is what the original title of this topic referred to...

[DMoriarty]

Phil,

I don't know anything about Beavertail, but I do know that the list has never been limited to "municipal courses" and has always included pay-as-you-go publics.   I think Tom MacWood explained that multiple times.   Not that it matters now, but even Mike Cirba indicated that his claim was not limited to muni's and excluded only resort courses. 


I am curious, though, as to what other motivation you would expect from a publicly accessible course built on private land rather than that is was publicly accessible "simply for the monies it generated."

[TEPaul]

William Flynn did a few public courses. Marble Hall was one of them (not on the existing list on here). Opa Locka, that is on the list was not a public course, it was a golf course built for a development community, in this case the Curtiss concept of the town of Opa Locka.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

As has been typical of you throughout this thread in your replies, you misrepresent what others have stated.

I said, "I don't believe it fits the definition of "municipal" golf course in any way as that is what the original title of this topic referred to..."

I'm very glad that Tom has produced a fine list of golf courses that the public played back then. Unfortunately the list contains courses that do not fit with the ORIGINAL TOPIC which is all I stated. Yes, Tom has stated numerous times what and why he has posted his list; you keep ignoring the numerous times that Mike has DEFINED what the topic was that HE posted and THAT is what I was referring to.

I have no problem with Tom's list other than a few instances of courses that I feel shouldn't be included , Beavertail having been one, and that several dates were incorrect.

Since you seem to have now redefined Tom's list, stating that it contain's "pay-as-you-go publics," once again Beavertail does not meet this requirement for two important reasons. First, it was a designed and opened for play as a PRIVATE golf club. When not enough members joined, the owner began accepting  public play. Look throughout the thread and there have been numerous courses removed from the list because they started out as private before becoming public, with the word "Municipal" used quite often. The second reason is because even when he allowed public play it was LIMITED. This was a true "Semi-Private" course and the list doesn't include those.

Finally, and one last time, the ORIGINAL title of the thread referred to "MUNI'S" and was changed long ago by Mike in response to comments made by others. MY COMMENT definitely referred to that...

[DMoriarty]

Phillip, you are all wet on this one. Everything in my post is accurate.  The original title of the thread had nothing to do with the list or with Mike's absurd claim about Cobbs.  Both Mike and Tom have written that that any such list should include courses open for public play and not just munis.   I don't know what distinction you are trying to make and I don't care.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Beavertail was neither a municipal golf course nor was it a public course. It was a private course that allowed public play. Unfortunately I am away from home and cannot access my files, but I already posted this information earlier in the thread whcih you seem to have ignored. Tilly built it on the private estate of a gentleman (whose name escapes me but is mentioned in my original post), the Golf Club's clubhouse was in the front parlor of his home. He allowed public play simply for the monies it generated. The public came last in every peckingorder and so on the occasions where there was club tournament's or heavy club play the public couldn't get on the course...

I don't believe it fits the definition of "municipal" golf course in any way as that is what the original title of this topic referred to...

Phil-the-author
I'll be glad to take it off if you can provide the documentation.

[Tom MacWood]

~

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

For what its worth you should remove Beaver Tail. It wasn't a municipal course. It was actually one of the first semi-private courses, with a private club playing out of the club house while the public was given access of play. It was built  and owned by Audley Clarke who was also the President of the Beaver Tail Golf Club. The original "club house," which was used for many years was, the parlor of his own home.

Since Mike's theory is based upon municipal golf courses, Beaver Tail must go as it wasn't one.

It is not a list of municipal courses, it is a list of public/daily fee courses, and Beaver Tail falls under that category. Resort courses and private courses turned public do not qualify. By the way we are still waiting for you to respond to post 174.

[Tom MacWood]

Phil-the-author
I responded to your concern on the 4th of the July. Did you not understand my response?

[Tom MacWood]

David,

As has been typical of you throughout this thread in your replies, you misrepresent what others have stated.

I said, "I don't believe it fits the definition of "municipal" golf course in any way as that is what the original title of this topic referred to..."

I'm very glad that Tom has produced a fine list of golf courses that the public played back then. Unfortunately the list contains courses that do not fit with the ORIGINAL TOPIC which is all I stated. Yes, Tom has stated numerous times what and why he has posted his list; you keep ignoring the numerous times that Mike has DEFINED what the topic was that HE posted and THAT is what I was referring to.

I have no problem with Tom's list other than a few instances of courses that I feel shouldn't be included , Beavertail having been one, and that several dates were incorrect.

Since you seem to have now redefined Tom's list, stating that it contain's "pay-as-you-go publics," once again Beavertail does not meet this requirement for two important reasons. First, it was a designed and opened for play as a PRIVATE golf club. When not enough members joined, the owner began accepting  public play. Look throughout the thread and there have been numerous courses removed from the list because they started out as private before becoming public, with the word "Municipal" used quite often. The second reason is because even when he allowed public play it was LIMITED. This was a true "Semi-Private" course and the list doesn't include those.

Finally, and one last time, the ORIGINAL title of the thread referred to "MUNI'S" and was changed long ago by Mike in response to comments made by others. MY COMMENT definitely referred to that...

Phil-the-author
I've been following this thread fairly closely and I don't recall this thread ever being about municipal courses. My list was in response to the quote below. As I said I don't believe this thread ever had the word 'municipal' in the title, and if it did I didn't put it there. As you can easily observe I have no control over the title of this thread. Where did you see municipal?

However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.

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