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TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #325 on: July 08, 2010, 12:48:35 AM »
"TEP
I'm not sure if I've thanked you before or not, but I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for lending so much substance to this thread. I think everyone appreciates your level of expertise."


Tom MacWood:

That has become one of your many standard responses over the years to those on here who at this point have become a vast majority, if perhaps not yet a total 100% consensus.

Your other usual responses to people on here rather than actually trying to answer their questions intelligently or factually, apparently because you obviously can't, are;

1. I don't understand the question
2. Why are you being so defensive
3. Or to just ask another deflective question in response to a legitimate question to you which apparently you aren't prepared to answer for pretty obvious reasons.

Your a total joke these days, MacWood, and even in your reseach, which you think is all about quantity, no matter how irrelevant and trivial vs quality, compared to contributors like Cirba and the contributions he provides.

My interest on here these days with you is simply to minimize and expose your ridiculous self-promoting MO which is evidenced by your on-going contributions to this thread which are incredibly weak, to say the least, and continuing in that direction.

I can't see there are two to three people left on this website or anyhere else who support or believe in you anymore or accept much of anything to do with your golf architecture reserach and analysis! Unfortunately for you one who still seems to support you is David Moriarty who is frankly worse than you, in this vein, with even less currency out there with a club such as Merion probably because of the fact you actually tried to separate yourself and divorce yourself from him and his absurd essay on Merion when you tried to create an access opportunity for yourself with that club while stupidly trying to cc some members of it to apparenly embarrass other members.

Essentially, you have become a poster boy for how not to do research and analysis with architectural history and with significant clubs. At least that in and of itself may be a valuable contribution on your part for us all in what NOT to do.

 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 12:54:17 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #326 on: July 08, 2010, 02:47:28 AM »
Phil the Author,

I don't see the double standard.   Surely the article doesn't conclusively establish that Cobb's was the best and hardest in the country, does it?    If not, then just what is it exactly that you expect TomM to accept?  
__________________________

Dan Herrman,

It isn't my list.  But the listed courses with which I am familiar were considered were considered to be very good.  

I'm 100% convinced that Mike is correct - CC was an exceptionally well-regarded course -the Bethpage or Torrey Pines of its day.  I base my conclusion on my reading of Mike's findings.

That is NOT Mike's claim.   Mike claimed Cobbs was the best and hardest public course in the land.

-- Are you 100% convinced that Cobbs Creek was the best and hardest public course in the land?  
 
-- Do "Mike's findings" establish that Cobbs was the best and hardest public course in the land.  

Say, for example, do "Mike's findings" conclusively establish that Cobbs was better than both courses at Sunset Fields?  Griffith Park?  Brookside?  Harding Park?  The 1930 version of Eastmoreland?  Every other public course in the land?




« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 02:57:46 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #327 on: July 08, 2010, 05:58:01 AM »
Tom, what rating did Pond give Cobb's Creek?

I could be wrong but if he had been critical of the course in any way I believe that you would already have posted it as you value his opinion so highly.

Phil-the-author
Neither Pond not Merrill bothered to play the golf course, which says something in itself. I reckon the bloom was off the rose by then, that is if the bloom was ever there.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #328 on: July 08, 2010, 06:08:11 AM »

What difference does McCracken's of Philadelphia and the other writer's outside of Philly that Mike quoted from matter as to their experience of play when they are QUOTING those who have and are playing courses all over the country and are competing in tournaments such as the Publick Links championships and stating that Cobb's is among the best and some who say it is the best?

Isn't it really their credibility that matters?

Also, the ability to play well doesn't automatically enable one to understand the quality of golf course architecture otherwise nor does it prevent the poorer player from being able to design a great course. There have been some of those...

Actually, your statement, "With Merrill and Pond you know what courses they have played and seen (hundreds if not thousands from coast to coast) and based on their comments about all sorts of courses it is fairly easy to appreciate their level of expertise" flies in the face of the many golf course raters of today who play hundreds, and in the case of some like Matt Ward, possibly thousands, and yet are constantly having their "comments [reviews] about all sorts of courses" disagreed with and criticized.

So, what it boils down to is that you trust the opinions of certain ones from that time while Mike trusts the opinions of others.

So then, once again, don't you think that it is time that you simply stated that you can recognize how Mike MIGHT conclude what he has but that you simply disagree with his conclusions?



What exactly do Mike's articles say that I'm not accepting?

If you've only played a few public courses in a couple of cities you are not qualified to judge which are the best public courses in America IMO. What public courses had they seen? Van Cortland Park? Hardly the gold standard at the time.

I'm not talking about golfing ability when I speak of experience and expertise. I'm talking about experience as in playing courses from all over the country, and expertise as in showing an ability to recognize quality designs.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 06:22:03 AM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #329 on: July 08, 2010, 06:44:27 AM »
Tom,

You stated, "Neither Pond not Merrill bothered to play the golf course, which says something in itself..."

All it SAYS is that they hadn't played the course. It certainly doesn't intimate anything about the quality of the golf course as you seem to be implying. For example, I've been to St. Andrews, Scotland, on two week-long occasions. I never played the Old Course. What can someone imply from hearing that? Not a damn thing.

Your conclusion is wrong... of course that is my OPINION, just as it is nothing more than your OPINION that you've drawn the correct one. THAT is what you are not accepting about Mike's articles and how they convince him of his belief.

By the way, you describe Merrill and Pond thusly, "I'm not talking about golfing ability when I speak of experience and expertise. I'm talking about experience as in playing courses from all over the country, and expertise as in showing an ability to recognize quality designs..." so how does Merrill show a superior "expertise"  and "ability to recognize quality designs" in what he wrote about Jackson Park?

He wrote, "This course has the REPUTATION..." REPUTATION, not "I CONSIDER" or "FROM PLAYING IT I AM CONVINCED," no he QUOTED FROM OTHERS just as McCracken and the other writers that Mike quoted from did.

Are you trying to imply that those whose comments, MADE BY OTHERS, which stated that "This course has the reputation of being one of the finest municipals in the West" were made by FAR more experienced players who had a BETTER expertise and ability to recognize quality designs than the players quoted from in the articles that Mike has presented.

The absurdity of that would be off the silly meter.

Tom, what I maintain is simple. Both you and Mike have made statements of OPINION that you base on information that you each accept as FACT from various newspaper accounts, etc...

For you to simply state that you can understand how Mike has COME to his conclusions even though you DISAGREE with them is only reasonable after what you have posted and to not do so quite disingenuous... in my opinion of course...
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 06:46:27 AM by Philip Young »

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #330 on: July 08, 2010, 07:09:40 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:41:20 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #331 on: July 08, 2010, 07:23:16 AM »
Tom,

You stated, "Neither Pond not Merrill bothered to play the golf course, which says something in itself..."

All it SAYS is that they hadn't played the course. It certainly doesn't intimate anything about the quality of the golf course as you seem to be implying. For example, I've been to St. Andrews, Scotland, on two week-long occasions. I never played the Old Course. What can someone imply from hearing that? Not a damn thing.

Your conclusion is wrong... of course that is my OPINION, just as it is nothing more than your OPINION that you've drawn the correct one. THAT is what you are not accepting about Mike's articles and how they convince him of his belief.

By the way, you describe Merrill and Pond thusly, "I'm not talking about golfing ability when I speak of experience and expertise. I'm talking about experience as in playing courses from all over the country, and expertise as in showing an ability to recognize quality designs..." so how does Merrill show a superior "expertise"  and "ability to recognize quality designs" in what he wrote about Jackson Park?

He wrote, "This course has the REPUTATION..." REPUTATION, not "I CONSIDER" or "FROM PLAYING IT I AM CONVINCED," no he QUOTED FROM OTHERS just as McCracken and the other writers that Mike quoted from did.

Are you trying to imply that those whose comments, MADE BY OTHERS, which stated that "This course has the reputation of being one of the finest municipals in the West" were made by FAR more experienced players who had a BETTER expertise and ability to recognize quality designs than the players quoted from in the articles that Mike has presented.

The absurdity of that would be off the silly meter.

Tom, what I maintain is simple. Both you and Mike have made statements of OPINION that you base on information that you each accept as FACT from various newspaper accounts, etc...

For you to simply state that you can understand how Mike has COME to his conclusions even though you DISAGREE with them is only reasonable after what you have posted and to not do so quite disingenuous... in my opinion of course...

That is your interpretation...IMO it does say something about CC.

What exactly do Mike's articles say that I'm not accepting? What public courses had they seen?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #332 on: July 08, 2010, 07:35:19 AM »
Tom,

Now you are simply ignoring what I have written. You know EXACTLY what those articles state. All you have to do is read them again if you've forgotten them.

"What public courses had they seen?" That is also an absurd question and you know it.

Why do you avoid reasonable questions? For example, you ignored or avoided or refuse to answer these two:

"Are you trying to imply that those whose comments, MADE BY OTHERS, which stated that "This course has the reputation of being one of the finest municipals in the West" were made by FAR more experienced players who had a BETTER expertise and ability to recognize quality designs than the players quoted from in the articles that Mike has presented?"

More importantly, despite, once again, asking NUMEROUS TIMES, you simply will not even acknowledge the question, no less answer it, when I ask, "So then, once again, don't you think that it is time that you simply stated that you can recognize how Mike MIGHT conclude what he has but that you simply disagree with his conclusions?"

When you answer those two I'll give you very detailed and specific answers to your two questions to me, "What exactly do Mike's articles say that I'm not accepting? What public courses had they seen?"


 


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #333 on: July 08, 2010, 07:36:39 AM »

Did Pond and Merrill claim to play all the courses they rated?  I ask because Merrill's blurb doesn't sound to be based on first-person experience.


Pond did and he listed his score. I'm not sure about Merrill. When I get little time later I'll find what they said about Rock Manor and East Potomac pass it along.

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #334 on: July 08, 2010, 07:38:38 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:41:39 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #335 on: July 08, 2010, 07:38:44 AM »
Phil-the-author
I've read them. You tell me what they say that I'm not accepting or move along.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #336 on: July 08, 2010, 07:45:59 AM »
I don't know where they were based. Pond's book was published in 1954 and Merrill's in 1950.

Mike Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #337 on: July 08, 2010, 07:55:20 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:41:58 PM by MCirba »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #338 on: July 08, 2010, 08:02:40 AM »
Tom,

You must enjoy your arrogance... "I've read them. You tell me what they say that I'm not accepting or move along."

You simply refuse to ask or even acknowledge reasonable questions as if your continued ignoring of them is proof that you are correct.

I will answer your question along with the other one you posed ONLY when you have answered the two that I have asked of you NUMEROUS times. I already stated that.

Do that or maybe YOU should move along...

Mike Cirba

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #339 on: July 08, 2010, 08:34:47 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:42:15 PM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #340 on: July 08, 2010, 09:20:04 AM »
I've changed the title of this thread to better reflect the discussion.

I am surprised you didn't retitle it "Tom MacWood's #@**&^#** List of Public Golf Course Thru Bethpage".

I am trying to stay out of this one. I will agree with Tmac that any claim of the "best of the best" is arguable, but note that they are arguing more because its you than out of any real concern for truth, justice and the American way!


I am interested in who these guys were, writing travel books in the 50's, given TM's reliance on them.  Again, my take is a little different than his. I think they wanted a comprehensive book, but didn't necessarily have time to travel before deadline, and thus, relied on outside reports for some courses.  I don't see how TMac can conclusively draw the opinion that they didn't play because it wasn't good.  I mean, is there anyone here who is going to claim Cobbs Creek IS NOT a good public course in design terms?

I think his basic logic of relying on writings 25 years later is flawed.  At least, when the Merion guys relied on a club history published that long after the fact, he and DM thrashed the veracity of that soundly, did they not?  And yet......here is he using later documents to trump your first hand accounts from good players in national championship qualifiers, etc.

Of course, we have seen these Terrier like tendencies out of Tom before, and we have seen some stretches of logic, too.  For instance, how do train schedules tell us about CC and its status in the world?  The only consistencies I see are that he likes to argue needlessly with Phillly guys (and to be fair, vice versa)  It would seem to most that you could admit CC was a very good course, and possibly the best, and certainly one of the best, and he could admit the same.  Either that, or pull out the rulers, measure your penis' and we will solve this that way.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #341 on: July 08, 2010, 09:30:05 AM »
Jeff,

As I do not have a copy of either "A Guide to 1,870 North American Golf Courses" written by Harold Pond or "The Golf Course Guide" written by Anthony Merrill I have simply taken on good faith that these were CONTEMPORANEOUS documents to the 1915-30 timeframe.

You stated, "I am interested in who these guys were, writing travel books in the 50's, given TM's reliance on them... I think his basic logic of relying on writings 25 years later is flawed."

Are you aying that these two works that Tom is quoting from as PROOF that Cobb's Creek was not considered among the best municipal golf courses in the country from 1920-1930 were written in the 1950's?

If that is the case Tom has gone well beyond disingenuous to downright hypocritical. I am hoping that I have read what you wrote incorrectly...

Mike Sweeney

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #342 on: July 08, 2010, 09:35:01 AM »
I mean, is there anyone here who is going to claim Cobbs Creek IS NOT a good public course in design terms?


Let's start out with the disclaimer!  ;)

I am a former Philly kid now living in New York. My home course for high school Friday matches and practices was Cobbs Creek. I doubt there is anyone here who has played the course more than me, but I have not played it in 25 years.

I have seen the old design here (I did not play it) and it does not change some basic design issues at Cobb's:

1. The holes along the creek are interesting, but they have always had drainage/washout issues. Strategic design is not my point as they are interesting. Jeff Brauer, you tell me is it good design to have a public course with these types of issues?

2. The old routing and bunkering was obviously more interesting, but it does not change the fact that Cobbs away from the creek holes (most of the now back 9) is one big gigantic hill that is not rolling or unique terrain, IMHO.

I have not followed this thread closely but I would put the potential of Pelham and Split Rock in the Bronx at much higher than Cobbs. They may have been private at one time which may disqualify them and Split Rock came later.

Signing off for the day!  :D

Mike Cirba

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #343 on: July 08, 2010, 09:50:12 AM »
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 04:42:34 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #344 on: July 08, 2010, 09:51:39 AM »
"I think his basic logic of relying on writings 25 years later is flawed.  At least, when the Merion guys relied on a club history published that long after the fact, he and DM thrashed the veracity of that soundly, did they not?  And yet......here is he using later documents to trump your first hand accounts from good players in national championship qualifiers, etc."


Mr Jeffrey Sir:

I think it would be more accurate for you to say MacWood and Moriarty TRIED to thrash the veracity soundly of the latest Merion history book but what in actual fact did they find in it that was historically inaccurate?

The only thing I'm aware of that was historically inaccurate in that history book was the mention that Wilson went abroad in 1910 and not 1912 when he actually did go abroad. However, that history book or the former one by the same author also mentioned that rumor that had always been around Merion that Wilson also almost sailed on the Titanic and the book mentioned that that was interesting since the Titanic maiden voyage was almost two years AFTER they mentioned Wilson went abroad. So the truth was that that story was in fact not a rumor and that he did almost sail from France on the Titanic. Luckily, for him, he delayed his return by a few weeks for reasons we are not aware of.

Moriarty in his usual logic and fact distorting way, and with MacWood's assistance, apparently used that single mistaken fact in that Merion history book as some kind of building block to go on to create the perception that Merion's architectural history back then was all wrong by creating premises and assumptions and then conclusions that numerous other things about Merion's history were wrong as well such as that later trip proved that Wilson and his committee could not have routed and designed that course in 1911.

His initial fallacious premise to that effect proved nothing of the kind. He even tried to use the perception that Wilson and committee could not have done it on their own because the story at Merion HAD ALWAYS BEEN that he had to go abroad and do drawings and such BEFORE he began to route and design the course.  THAT story was NOT around Merion back then. Matter of fact, THAT story did not crop up until about a half century AFTER Wilson and his committee routed and designed that course in 1911 and then later went abroad in 1910.

That history book also included the fact that Macdonald and Whigam lent some help and advice to Merion back in those two early years; a fact that Tom MacWood did not seem to realize when he started a thread on here in 2003 ("Re: Macdonald and Merion?") that included some articles he had found that mentioned Macdonald and Whigam had lent their support. Apparently MacWood thought he had discovered something that Merion never knew and never acknowledged, and thereby must have minimized Macdonald's contribution apparently for the purpose of inaccurately glorifying Wilson's contribution. That was not true either----they always acknowledge Macdonald's contribution; matter of fact their contemporaneous meeting minutes back then (1910 and 1911) comprehensively reflect that.

Those two birds didn't soundly thrash the veracity of Merion's recorded history at all---even if they still try and make people think they did somehow. And that is precisely why Merion and anyone around it who really do know the facts of the history of Merion saw right through that absurd IMO piece of Moriarty's entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion."   ???

Of course MacWood, seemingly on his own, even tried to take the thing a step further into absurdity by suggesting that HH Barker must have routed and designed Merion East rather than Wilson and his committee.   ::)


« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 10:02:46 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #345 on: July 08, 2010, 10:15:04 AM »
Mike Cirba:

Some months ago while down at the Old White at the Greenbriar with Richmond architect Lester George, he made an interesting observation which perhaps should be noted as a comparison of Macdonald's and Raynor's career in architecture with Hugh Wilson's career and his architectural friends in Philadelphia.

Lester, who had restored Macdonald/Raynor's Old White, wondered if Macdonald and particularly Raynor in his career of more course projects than Macdonald had ever got involved in any public or municipal golf course project.

I told him that I'm not aware of any but I will leave that question and its answer to the rest of you good to expert GCA researchers.  ;)

PS:
I have heard there was some correspondence that once was floating around the Metropolitan Golf Association of New York that the MET once asked C.B. if he and his friends and his engineer architect would like to get involved in doing a municipal course that could enure to the benefit of the public and the common golfer of New York with no private club affiliation and C.B.'s response was; "Let THEM eat cake."
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 10:16:49 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #346 on: July 08, 2010, 10:33:41 AM »
I don't know where they were based. Pond's book was published in 1954 and Merrill's in 1950.

Tom,

I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to my original point?

Jackson Park opened in 1930, correct?

Ponds and Merrill's books were published 20 years later and 24 years later, respectively.

I'm sure they are very interesting tomes and I'd love to read them someday, but I can't see the relevance to disputing my point about how well-regarded Cobb's Creek was from inception in 1916 until the Depression.

Lots of stuff happened after the Market Crash, some of it good for public golf, some of it not-so-good.

In any case, it was a real delimiter in golf once the world economy hit the skids.

In any case, I'm not sure you can read anything into their omission of Cobb's Creek, right?

If they were from out of town, wouldn't they do they typical thing of trying to hit the best privates if they visited Philly, and try to line up a dance card of Merion, PV, Philly Country, Philly Cricket, HVGC, etc??

What courses did each rate in the Philly area?

I'm not sure what the relevance of the 1930 date for Jackson Park may be. No doubt it took years for these men to play and see all these courses, just as it took years for you to see and play the courses you've experienced. We don't know when they may have played the course other than it was some time between 1930 and 1950 or 1954, and obviously it was not during the War years, but whatever the case twenty years is a relatively short window of time. The one thing they both have in common, they were both high on the golf course.

As far as CC is concerned like I said it would appear the bloom was off the rose if it was ever on the rose. Conceivably they could have played CC in the 20s, 30s, 40s or 50s, but for whatever reason they chose not to.

Pond played Aronomink, Gulph Mills, Llanerch, Merion-East, Overbrook, Philadelphia Bala & Spring Mill, Rolling Green, PV, and Springhaven. Merrill profiled Saucon Valley, Lancaster, Jeffersonville, Llanerch, Merion-East, Philadelphia Spring Mill, Seaview, Atlantic City, Pine Valley, Torresdale-Frankfort.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 10:38:04 AM by Tom MacWood »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #347 on: July 08, 2010, 10:41:17 AM »
Tom M,
What was your rationale for the list of courses you provided in post 296?

You failed if you tried to prove that CC wasn't one of the top public courses by evidencing that list.  That list, if anything, hurts your argument, IMHO.

TEPaul

Re: Tom MacWood's List of Public Golf Course thru Bethpage
« Reply #348 on: July 08, 2010, 10:47:26 AM »
"I am a former Philly kid now living in New York."


Well, in that case, Michael, you should be considered an expatriate and even a heretic!

I am a former New York kid now living in Philly and I guarantee you that is the right and true direction to go in if one ever wants to reach the sunlit uplands of life.

However, when I once told my ultra New Yorker stepmother I was moving to Philadelphia she said: "Oh my God, poor thing, you are moving to the boondocks where they do unimaginable things like wear colored trousers with tuxedo jackets and refuse to stand up for toasts at debutante parties."

And personally I think Cobbs Creek is not only the best public course in the country, it's probably the best in the universe and that includes that thing in New York they call Bethpage Black. What kind of architecture is that anyway? It was done by some third tier municipal employee by the name of Burbeck!  ::)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 10:49:54 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's "other" Muni?
« Reply #349 on: July 08, 2010, 11:03:20 AM »

Harding Park (1925) - W.Watson & S.Whiting
Haggins Oak (1932) - A.Mackenzie
Sharp Park (1931) - A.Mackenzie
Griffith Park-Harding (1923) - G.Thomas
Lake Chabot (1923) - W.Locke
Brookside Muni (1928) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-South (1927) - B.Bell
Sunset Fields-North (1928) - B.Bell
Patty Jewett (1898/1917) - W.Campbell & W.Watson
Rock Manor (1921) - W.Reid
Jacksonville Muni (1923) - D.Ross
Mount Plymouth (1925) - W.Clark
Opa Locka (1927) - W.Flynn
Pasadena (1925) - W.Stiles, J.VanKleek & W.Hagen
Savannah Muni (1926) - D.Ross
Big Run (1930) - H.Smead
Deerpath (1927) - A.Pirie
Glencoe (1921) - G.O'Neil
Palos (1919) - T.Bendelow
St. Andrews (1926) - E.Dearie
Sandy Hollow (1930) - C.Wagstaff
Duck Creek (1920) - W.Langford
Waveland (1901) - W.Dickinson
Beechwood (1931) - W.Diddell
Coffin (1920) - W.Diddell
Erskine Park (1925) - G.O'Neil
Armour Park (1925) - W.Clark
Keller (1929) - P.Coates
Meadowbrook (1926) - J.Foulis
Seneca (1935) - A.McKay
Riverside Muni (1931) - W.Stiles
Mount Pleasant (1933) - G.Hook
Belvedere (1925) - W.Watson
Rackham (1924) - D.Ross
Swope Park (1915/1934) - J.Dagleish & A.Tillinghast
Forest Park (1912) - R.Foulis
Bayside (1930) - A. Mackernzie
Salisbury Links (1908) - D.Emmet
La Tourette (1929/1934) - D.Rees & J.VanKleek
Split Rock (1935) - J.VanKleek
Durand-Eastman (1934) - RT.Jones
Hyde Park, NY (1927) - W.Harries
Bethpage-Red (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Bethpage-Blue (1935) - A.Tillinghast
Ashville Muni (1927) - D.Ross
Starmount Forest (1930) - W.Stiles & J.VanKleek
Community (1912) - W.Hoare
Mill Creek (1928) - D.Ross
Highland Park-New (1928) - S.Alves
Metropolitan Parks (1926) - S.Thompson
Tam O'Shanter-Dales (1928) - L.Macomber
Eastmoreland (1918) - H.Egan
Hershey Park (1931) - M.McCarthy
North Park (1933) - E.Loeffler & J.McGlynn
Tam O'Shanter, Pa (1929) - E.Loeffler
Beaver Tail (1925) - A.Tillinghast
Stevens Park (1924)
Tenison Park (1924) - S.Cooper & J.Burke
Brackenridge Park (1916) - A.Tillinghast
Memorial Park (1935) - J.Bredemus
Brown Deer (1929) - G.Hansen
Triggs Memorial (1933) - D.Ross
Indian Canyon (1935) - H.Egan
Jackson Park (1930) - W.Tucker & F.James
Janesville Muni (1924) - RB.Harris
East Potomac (1920) - W.Travis & R.White

Dan
This list? You are entitled to your opinion. The reasoning behind the list was to show the depth and breadth of very good public golf courses in America during the period in question, and to show how ridiculous Mike's claim was.

Do you think Cobbs Creek was a better and more difficult course than Opa Locka, Sharp Park, Sunset Fields, Belvedere or Starmount Forest? I don't. In fact I think CC would be lucky to make it into the middle of this pack.

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