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Tom MacWood

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God bless you, Herbert Strong
« on: March 09, 2010, 10:07:59 PM »
This is from a advertising campaign from 1970. Its a shame MR chose to plow over Herbert Strong a few years ago.

TEPaul

Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2010, 10:28:28 PM »
I'm not sure I understand what the gist of this thread is supposed to be or to indicate. It may help, Mr MacWood, if you would work on your ability to be a bit more expository on this website. Do you have any idea what I mean by that or should I expound on on it for greater all-around clarity?  ;)

If you feel that question is too much for you to consider and answer, then please allow me to help by making a suggestion.

It seems your over-riding interest and sentimentality on this website, and perhaps generally, is and always has been for the preservation or what you consider to be significant GCA preservation or perhaps even significant "art" preservation at all costs.

If that is the case, in your opinion, would you care to address it, and hopefully in some mildly comprehensively undertandable fashion?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 10:39:01 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2010, 10:54:21 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Interesting ad...

How do you feel about a preservation effort that attempts to keep or restore or preserve everything back to the original yet moves the tees back along historic lines to try and recapture original "shot values", if there is such a thing?

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2010, 10:59:17 PM »
That is an interesting ad, especially given that Strong would not really have been a household name then (or now). What publication did it appear in?

I've only seen one Strong course - Engineers.  God bless him, indeed, for building those greens.  I thought the routing was really good as well and took advantage of the elevation change that was there.  I would love to see what the original Manoir Richelieu course looked like, especially given the severity of the site.  Nothing much left is there?

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 11:37:20 PM »
As a member now at Canterbury (OH), I freely admit I am biased towards Strong.  He did build some wonderful greens there and the fairways are phenomenal given the constraints of the property.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 06:07:18 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Interesting ad...

How do you feel about a preservation effort that attempts to keep or restore or preserve everything back to the original yet moves the tees back along historic lines to try and recapture original "shot values", if there is such a thing?


Each situation is different, but I certainly would have preferred any of the above to having MR completely plowed over. The course is NLE.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 06:10:46 AM »
John
The ad came from the NY Times. I don't think there is much Herbert Strong left there.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 06:53:17 AM »
Here are a few more images:

Mike Cirba

Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2010, 07:23:54 AM »
Tom,

That's a shame...the course looked pretty cool.   

Geoff,

Most Strong courses I've played have very bold greens and the ones at MR seem of that ilk.   Are Canterbury's similar?

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2010, 08:58:32 AM »
It seems like Herbert Strong's course never lasted very long.  Is this because he built such wild greens?  Are courses with wild greens and bold architecture doomed to be renovated?

As a sidebar, I love the old map of MR.  I would love to see more drawings like these appear for modern courses.  Does it not make the layout appear more exciting?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2010, 09:03:32 AM »
JNC -

Speaking of which, I've always wanted to know more about Strong's design for the old Ponte Vedra Inn course. It was slated to host a Ryder Cup when WWII broke out and the event was cancelled. It was then "softened" by RTJ in th early 50's and Bobby Weed made more recent changes.

I would love to know more about the old Strong original. It was highly thought of at one time.

Bob

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 12:51:10 AM »
Tom-

Thanks for starting this thread, I was not aware of the sad end to the course. I only knew about it from the book that describes the course hole by hole with drawings of the hole from above and from an elevation perspective.  I missed out on a copy some years ago and I am still kicking myself, by far one of the more informative guides to a course ever done.
Here is a view of a page courtesy of the PBA galleries website...

Tully


BCyrgalis

Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2010, 01:06:24 AM »
The picture of the huge green that has all those wild undulations looks like it could fit in easily at Engineers.  I know it's a bit impractical, but I wish someone would still build greens like that.  It's a clear example of how a course doesn't have to be 7,000 yards to be tough; with greens like that, there's nothing more difficult than trying to wedge one close when the result could be a 100-foot putt, over the valley and through the woods.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2010, 06:14:25 AM »
I don't know if there is one particular reason why Strong's courses were often redesigned or worse. MR survived 70+ years before being wiped out so I'm not sure it fits the mold. MR was relatively short (just over 6000 yards), and the site fairly severe, I think that and its overall quirkiness doomed it.

Ponte Vedra, Engineers, and Saucon Valley were all redesigned, and I'm sure there were others I can't think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there were a combination of factors that led to it, but if I was to put my finger on one it would be the quirkiness of his courses (including the greens) that led to change, sportiness may be a better term. His courses were very sporty, almost to an extreme, which can be controversial. The other common trend with his courses, they hosted major championships (or were scheduled to host) at a very young age.

TEPaul

Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2010, 08:08:54 PM »
"Ponte Vedra, Engineers, and Saucon Valley were all redesigned, and I'm sure there were others I can't think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there were a combination of factors that led to it, but if I was to put my finger on one it would be the quirkiness of his courses (including the greens) that led to change, sportiness may be a better term. His courses were very sporty, almost to an extreme, which can be controversial."


I would very much agree with that as perhaps a primary reason much of Strong architecture got redesigned. It is ironic because Strong's architecture looked so cool but styles and fashions change like they do in art or funiture or whatever. The latter many just put in the attic and then rediscovered it again decades later but you generally can't do that very well with redesigned golf architecture.

At the top of my list to concentrate more on soon is Herbert Fowler; then Herbert Strong and then Devereux Emmet. It's such a shame so much of the architecture of the latter two is just history now. I remember not long before she died my mother mentioned in her opinion Emmet's course at Old Westbury that I guess was part of the old Meadowbrook Hunt Club before it moved to where it is now was just so beautiful. I asked her if she just meant the site itself and she said, no the golf course itself was and she never even thought about golf architecture as far as I know. I then asked her what she thought of modern architecture like the bunkers and such. She thought about that for a moment and simply said: "I think they seem sort of contrived." She was an artist though when she was young----sculpture and photography, so I guess she had a good natural eye; she was also a real inveterate and insane fox hunter particularly in Ireland and over there in that day it sure was some rugged and ultra natural country they hunted over; and not just that but she always did it side-saddle which I think is about doubly insane. Have any of you ever seen a woman ride hell-bent-for-leather side-saddle? How in the world they could not have thought they wouldn't break the leg they slung over the saddle is beyond me.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:35:04 PM by TEPaul »

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2010, 09:16:07 PM »
Tom,

That's a shame...the course looked pretty cool.    

Geoff,

Most Strong courses I've played have very bold greens and the ones at MR seem of that ilk.   Are Canterbury's similar?

Mike,

I can vouch for the boldness of the greens at Canterbury and specifically my lack of success at figuring them out.

Keep in mind its not like you have much time to get your sea legs... The first five holes have some pretty severe slopes in them with the first and the fifth standing out among those peers.

The first from Ran's write-up:



The fifth:





The fifteenth (I wish they could restore the old back tee which created more of an angle on the drive):

« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 09:26:16 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 05:20:38 PM »
Ran is a big fan of Strong.

He also did Inwood on Long Island - perhaps the ultimate hidden gem on GCA.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 05:24:42 PM »
JNC -

Speaking of which, I've always wanted to know more about Strong's design for the old Ponte Vedra Inn course. It was slated to host a Ryder Cup when WWII broke out and the event was cancelled. It was then "softened" by RTJ in th early 50's and Bobby Weed made more recent changes.

I would love to know more about the old Strong original. It was highly thought of at one time.

Bob

Indeed.  I think I saw it featured in the Gazetteer of one of the World Atlases of Golf Club.  I do know the island green 9th was one inspiration for Dye's 17th at Sawgrass.  Beyond that, I know nothing about the course.  I would bet that it is a still a neat layout.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2010, 07:41:54 AM »
From TEP above:

"At the top of my list to concentrate more on soon is Herbert Fowler; then Herbert Strong and then Devereux Emmet. It's such a shame so much of the architecture of the latter two is just history now. I remember not long before she died my mother mentioned in her opinion Emmet's course at Old Westbury that I guess was part of the old Meadowbrook Hunt Club before it moved to where it is now was just so beautiful. I asked her if she just meant the site itself and she said, no the golf course itself was and she never even thought about golf architecture as far as I know. I then asked her what she thought of modern architecture like the bunkers and such. She thought about that for a moment and simply said: "I think they seem sort of contrived." She was an artist though when she was young----sculpture and photography, so I guess she had a good natural eye; she was also a real inveterate and insane fox hunter particularly in Ireland and over there in that day it sure was some rugged and ultra natural country they hunted over; and not just that but she always did it side-saddle which I think is about doubly insane. Have any of you ever seen a woman ride hell-bent-for-leather side-saddle? How in the world they could not have thought they wouldn't break the leg they slung over the saddle is beyond me."


From Herb Fowler to your mother riding side-saddle at an Irish fox hunt.... in one paragraph. Dazzling. Thanks.  
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 07:48:19 AM by BCrosby »

TEPaul

Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2010, 08:31:08 AM »
Bob:

It's just free-associating I guess. I wish you'd met my mother. She died in 2004 but I did know you then.

She was a trip. There was some real shock value in some of the things she would say and do and unbelievably I don't think she even  realized it because if someone called her on it she always seemed so surprised.

My Dad was a classic follow-the-sun black sheep of his family and starting right after the war golf became his whole thing. He moved to Daytona Beach right after the war. My poor mother was apparently totally out of her element down there and didn't know what the hell to do with herself. They got married during the war in Long Island and right in the receiving line one of those old Long Island doyenes came right up to her, looked her squarely in the eye, and said: "Frances Ellen, I hope you have the strength for both of you because you're definitely going to need it."

HELLO! ;)

So I guess she was miserable in Daytona for the first couple of years and then suddenly she had a brainstorm. She decided to bring her hunter down from the north and just get back into riding and I think without even bothering to mention it to my father. She contracted with a stable in Ormond Beach (about ten miles north of Daytona) and then on the Florida East Coast Champion in a boxcar down comes her hunter from the north. She went down to the station all dressed up in her formal riding gear, her top hat and all and lead her hunter off the train, put her side-saddle on him and proceeded to ride him right up the middle of Rte 1 from Daytona to Ormond.

WELL, apparently the town thought some kind of Martian had landed. The next day in the paper here is the feature article on the front page and a photo with her riding her hunter on side-saddle all decked out right up the middle of Rte. 1. I even remember the name of the hunter---Denny's Deer.

Talk about some of the insane things she apparently did riding, just this year my sister found a photograph in a box in the attic from the 1930s in Ireland that's of my mother jumping right over the top of a sedan on her hunter. We've looked at that thing very carefully and there are no cuts or apparent doctoring to that photo. I'm going to take it to some photographic expert to see what he says about it.

But to get things back to golf and golf architecture, I do have some pretty strong visual recollections of some of those courses down there back then in the early 1950s including some of Ross's. It would be very interesting to see what some of these GCA experts would say about them if they could see the way many of them were in those days. My recollection is that they were just so simple compared to what we're used to now, and particularly their maintenance! Essentially that's why I so often mention Fernandina Beach Municipal golf course on here----eg it just has that total look about it like it is right out of the 1950s, maintenance and all. When I was on it I felt like if I turned around there would be my Dad right out of the 1950s too.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 08:46:26 AM by TEPaul »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2010, 12:31:09 PM »
TEP,if you won't write a book,at least agree to be one of George Pazin's GTK  subjects.We could allow only non-golf architecture related questions.The thread might run for months.

TEPaul

Re: God bless you, Herbert Strong New
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2010, 04:35:40 PM »
Jeff:

I would say that George Pazin definitely does not need to do a GTK thread on me. With close to 40,000 posts on here I guess I've done a pretty comprehensive job of that myself.  ;)

And frankly it seems like most all the stories have already been told but I must admit sometimes when I read something on here it does remind me of things I probably haven't thought of in 50 years that seem worth telling at least for their incongruity compared to the world we live in today and the way some of us think. Plus, you know what they say about some old people----eg when they start to see the light at the end of the tunnel they kinda tend to reflect back on what once was more than they ever did before.

And the world has changed so much too, particularly around the world of golf and from some of the people I've known along the way. I don't even know if I think it's better or worse because I've never really thought that way----it's more a matter of what was just was and the way it is now is just a matter of what is just is.

Do I think that some significant factors of golf or within golf might miss some of the things about the way it used to be? Yeah, I do; I really do and I think that is one of the primary reasons we've gone through something of a general renaissance cycle in golf architecture. Twenty five years ago the whole idea of restoration didn't even exist and either did the word restoration in golf and architecture. Some of our young folks on here might not realize that because it never even occured to them since many aren't even much older than that now.

I'm a huge believer in cycles, particular style and fashion and cultural cycles and I happen to believe our American ethos is probably more prone to them than any other in the world and arguably more than any other in the history of the world.

Why? In my opinion, because we are both considered to be and think of ourselves (in something of a duality or conflicted way, I admit) as the world's "can-do" people. To us change is our middle name----we've actually glorified it, honored it and become proud of it while other peoples and cultures tend to shun it and or become afraid of it for very good reasons of their own----eg tradition, continuity, a greater sense of permanency etc.

I've been around the western world a lot in my life, particularly Europe and I've always been so aware of the way some other nations and peoples think of us. We really have been the people so many love and love to hate almost simultaneously. Have I been embarrassed over the years as being of and from a country so many called "The Ugly Americans?" You bet I have but I've been able to go deeper into that and for years, probably because most of my time over there was longer and more than just a tourist and I realize why people often say things like that about us without actually meaning it totally or meaning it the way we think they mean it.

And I've also come to realize that many, perhaps most Americans, really don't even care that much about what others think about them and that has troubled me for sure, and more so as time goes along. That very thing is what totally freaked my mother out towards the end of her life; she became completely fixated on it----she used to say that most Americans are just so unworldly; that they've never really been any other place and they don't really even care or think about most of the rest of the world because they think of themselves as Americans, the world's most fortunate people from the land of ultra-plenty and fortune and can-doism in the final analysis.

She used to even go up to strangers in places like a super-market and ask them if they thought George Bush (#43) was as much of an idiotic schmuck as she thought he was. If they looked perplexed she would add: "Well, he's never even been anywhere."

The last embarrassing public incident I went through with her was coming out of a restaurant not far from home. I was going around the car to open the door for her but unfortunately she noticed this huge Hummer that had just pulled into the the parking place next to us. She opened the guy's door and bellowed "BOOOO." The poor guy looked at her and said; "What do you mean Boooo; what's that for?" and she said, "Because you obviously own that ridiculous gas-guzzling car; who do you think you are, some US Marine in Iraq?" Luckily the guy just laughed and everything was cool. When she got into the car I said: "You just can't say things like that to strangers," and like she almost always did she just said: "Well I didn't really mean anything by it; but I am right."

She actually liked the world she came from while my father just hated it and everything about it. I guess that's why he went to Daytona Beach right after the war and fell in love with golf. Had it not been for golf, golf, golf and those people down there in it bigtime who were so good at it he may not have even lived to be an old man, for all I know.

People are complicated sometimes that way. One time when she got old my mother told me that when she was about 18 or 19 she and three of her friends from the same school in New York went to what they used to call a "finishing school" in Italy. When I asked her what she learned there all she could think of was art. Then she told me they decided to tour around Europe----this was probably in the middle to late 1930s and so they bought an old Audi for $50 bucks that was a convertible with no top. They set off for Germany to meet up with this super-star German aristocrat who'd been in her brother's class at Harvard. As they were driving down a lonely stretch of the Autobahn basically alone who the hell goes by in a convoy but Adolf Hitler and his big black Mercedes. She said he slowed down to peer into this little Audi with these four pretty Americans girls in it, and she said he smiled at them and waved for about a minute before proceeding on at high speed. Then she said if she'd only had a pistol she could've shot the SOB right there and then and changed the course of history for the greater good. So I asked he if she hated Hitler then and she said, no they actually admired him then because they felt he was reunifying Germany and bringing it back.

Complicated stuff and complicated people. I guess that's why I've fallen in love with history and hearing the side of it that generally isn't in the history books, even if it's from people like my mother and some of her interesting friends who were her contemporaries. I must say she did piss me off a lot but after she died I began to realize how much she saw and knew throughout her life and how much inherent wisdom she probably really did have---she saw the worst of times and poeple and definitely the best of times and people and she was certainly a globe-trotter, always; every year throughout her life she was off to somewhere new and different; I am not aware of a single corner of this earth she didn't get to at one time or another. I think she really did feel that Americans or maybe just human beings almost had to do that if they ever wanted to really understand things and people. It was the same thing with all the Broadway plays. She made us go to all of them as kids, and I always hated the idea of having to go but loved everyone of them afterward I'd seen them.

She may've been a political conservative early on but in the end she became a flaming liberal. In the last few years of her life she had three heroes, all black: Nelson Mandella, Tiger Woods and I think Martin Luther King. God help us around here had she lived long enough to get to know of Barrack Obama. Had she, I bet she would've thought her entire journey had been really worth it in the end.

By the way, that aristocratic super-star German guy who'd been in her brother's class they were going to see in their little $50 Audi? They saw him; went to stay in his big castle. I think all four of them were in love with him. Within a few years Hitler's SS killed him because he apparently didn't see the point of their ideas on Arian or racial purity and didn't mind saying so.

Strange world and complicated people. The more complicated they are the better I like it and the more I'm interested in them and finding out what really made them tick.

To get back to golf and GCA that's why I'm so interesting in finding out more about C.B. Macdonald, the man and not just the architecture part of his life. Incredibly complex man; I can sense it and we should know as much of it and about him as possible if we really want to understand the way the world was he came from. Could it be politically incorrect to some of our sensibilities today? You bet it could and that's what I find one of the most interesting things of all.




« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 04:52:55 PM by TEPaul »

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