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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2002, 12:49:16 AM »
Garcia's smart-ass comment to writers about how they grip the pen misses the point. Slow Play is like a writer who misses deadlines. That's not a good practice to get into. It'll cost them their jobs, just as slow play will cost Garcia a few shots - presuming officials have the nerve to time him.

That's where Garcia is probably headed. The stuff he does, which is impossible to watch, is also going to ruin him as a player. Anyone remember Hubert Green's endless wagles?

The one thing that's overlooked with tour players is that as slow as they are when they go through their pre-shot routine, they have tended to compensate by being very fast between shots as they hustle to the ball. Garcia is a good example of this. Your average golfer is not.

TV is obviously a culprit here. But I also think a major problem is that people aren't coming into the game through the caddie ranks. That's where you learned some important course management skills, like position, angles and that time is money. Golfers today have no training in their youth. So they dawdle and think it's cool strolling about mindlessly, then immersing themselves in what they took to be a copy of a professional's pre-shot routine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2002, 01:47:55 AM »
Guys

I think a major point here has been mised. That is, that most, if not all slow players, have absolutely no idea that they are actually slow. We can debate this topic for days on end about the reasons why, but it aint gonna improve the pace of play until those who slow us down know what they are doing wrong.

Ask your self this question "when was the last time any of us actually fronted a slow player and told that they were; a) playing too slow, and b) taking the enjoyment out of our games? The odds are that maybe 1 in 4 players (at least) plays the game too slowly. Are you one of 25% that needs to get moving?

I think we are all obliged to tell a slow player when they are too slow, in the nicest possible way. I've made an effort to do this at every opportunity over the past few years. It pleases me enormously to sidle up to a slow player in my group and tell them very discreetly that they need to quicken up, and then see the improvment they make. Almost every time the reponse is "I'm sorry, I had no idea, I'll make a point of speeding up". Even better is when you see that same guy coaching another slow player to speed up at a later date.

We can bitch all we want, but unless you are prepared to speak up it wont make any difference.

SG

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2002, 08:33:42 AM »
Shane,

I think you make a couple of valid points. There are plenty of folks out there who don't know they're slow. And there are plenty of folks out there too timid or clueless to let them know. Then there are plenty of folks out there who know exactly what they're doing and don't care. Those are the ones who'll stuff a five iron you know where if you push 'em.

By the way, it looks like the TOUR is making some changes to the slow play rules.

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/story?id=1311891

On both the TOUR and your local muny, it's all in the enforcement...    

PS Scary footnote in this article: If 22-year-old Sergio Garcia finishes third in his next PGA Tour event, the Nissan Open, he will surpass Jack Nicklaus on the career money list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2002, 08:59:11 AM »
Doug, as you said, the key is enforcement.  On the Futures Tour we got tired enough of slow play we started handing out penalty strokes on the first bad time.  And we were willing to do it.  That made a difference.  On average we shaved 20 minutes off the pace of play from the previous year.  I'll be surprised if any player on the PGA Tour gets a penalty stroke this year.  To get three bad times is almost impossible.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2002, 01:09:10 PM »
Shane_g --

I knew, before clicking on your name to check your profile, that you weren't living in the United States.

Sadly, I don't think any of us USers could have written, honestly: "It pleases me enormously to sidle up to a slow player in my group and tell them very discreetly that they need to quicken up, and then see the improvment they make. Almost every time the reponse is 'I'm sorry, I had no idea, I'll make a point of speeding up'."

Am I wrong, My Fellow Americans? Would "I'm sorry, I had no idea . . . " be the common response here?

Here is my suggestion:

The industry (everyone from equipment makers to course owners -- all of whom stand to benefit from swifter play) should contribute to the financing of a video about Slow Play (and Its Many Causes) and send it to every pro shop in the country, for continuous playing on monitors in the restrooms.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2002, 01:20:24 PM »
Dan,

Great idea...You could also have 'em running continuously on the GPS monitors on the golf cars... ;D

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2002, 01:21:12 PM »
Good point, Dan.  I think we all know the most common response we'd get here in the states... it wouldn't pass the filth-screen here most definitely.

Sad but true.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2002, 02:54:42 PM »
Having spent a couple of days confined to a cart with Tommy down in Orange County and Indio, I can say that most people ignore the little message in the cart that says you are over your alotted time.

But when Tommy told the guys in front of us to pick it up, they literally did, choosing not to putt out and go to the next hole.  Once in a while people do amaze you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2002, 03:22:21 PM »
This week's Golfweek has an article that is entitled:
"PGA Tour to players: Speed it up." :)

The article says "in order to stem a festering problem regarding
pace of play on the PGA Tour, the Tour's Policy Board has
adopted serval changes for the 2002 season, Golfweek has
learned."

Me'thinks it's about time! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2002, 01:09:26 PM »
"Chamblee slow to accept pace-of-play policy"

from February 2 issue of Golfweek:

Brandel Chamblee is one player who disapproves of the PGA
Tour's stricter pace-of-play policy. He maintains players need
more than 45 seconds on some difficult shots, that Tour
players aren't slow, that fast players also cause problems,
that Tour officials say rounds take about as long as they
did 30 years ago, and that hitting when not ready is
unprofessional.

He takes exception to the new rule under which a player will
be fined $5,000 on a second bad time.  Previously, there was
no fine in that situation. Moreover, fines (but not penalty
strokes) are cumulative during the year.

"It's too strict, too severe," said Chamblee, fined $1,000 for
taking two seconds too long to hit a difficult shot from trouble
on the 16th hole of the 2001 Players Championship. "No
official wants to do it. If Tiger (Woods) gets two bad times
and comes to Amen Corner in the final round (of the Masters),
the focus will not be on whether he hits a good shot but on
how fast he plays. Maybe they should put a shot clock up."

HE also took exception to the new rule under which a player
would be disqualified after his fourth bad time in the same round.

"If Tiger is contending at Augusta and his next slow time is a
DQ, that's too much going on," Chamblee said. "DQ? Out of
the game? Come on."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

redanman (Guest)

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2002, 01:41:29 PM »
I now call Sergio "The Milkman".  

I have, however, never seen the white stuff actually come out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Richard_Goodale

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2002, 01:50:02 PM »
You obviously do not have a dirty mind Dr. Redanman.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2002, 01:59:32 PM »
Hey Brandel,
    Last I and millions of others heard, The Masters ain't a PGA Tour event.  It's always the slow players who don't realize they're slow (that, and just plain denial).  This is exactly why so many think slow play (or just taking as much time as they want) is a right.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BillV

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2002, 02:05:53 PM »
I really should have posted with speedy out to the left here before!

There is absolutely no excuse for slow play, period.  If one of your playing partners has an MI while playing, wave the next few groups through as you do CPR and call 911, dammit!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2002, 02:10:05 PM »
Gentlemen:

JohnV answered how slow play is combatted -- it's called following-up by those in charge. Don't blame the inmates in running the asylum -- blame the management.

Slow play occurs because management is alseep at the switch. If management made it the same priority as any other item of primary concern you would have a quicker pace of play at all clubs.

Finally, most clubs do not have any systematic process in identifying what is slow play. Without a process you have nothing more than half-hearted efforts and inconsistent efforts. JohnV made a key point -- take aggressive action and follow-up on a daily basis. People do get the message when they know MANAGEMENT IS SERIOUS! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2002, 10:59:30 AM »
"Somewhere along the line, (he'll) probably adjust.  I was
behind on every hole and forcing my fellow competitors to
rush, and it wasn't fair.  I was hurting them and had to change
the way I played."

--Jack Nicklaus, comparing the multiple waggles of Sergio
Garcia with his own reputation for slow play early in his career.  (GolfWorld, Feb. 1)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JakaB

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2002, 03:47:26 PM »
Shivas,

I actually walked 18 today and as I approached every ball I looked for a marker to pace to the ball as you suggested.  I think this is a good practice and really hadn't made a specific point to do it before...Of course I might have been the only one playing in the Midwest on a beautiful February day so I didn't hold anybody up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2002, 03:44:13 AM »
shivas:

Neat story about Village Links and how they've "solved"
this problem.  

Now, if we can just send this suggestion to each of the
18,000 golf managers/directors in the US ....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2002, 06:41:58 AM »
Interesting reading this thread and the tour pros habits and such in this vein. This might not mean much in the context of this thread, or who knows, maybe it might.

But there was a tournament around Philly here about ten years ago that was a one day tournament that had about 30 of the tour pros at White Manor. Not big money but they were playing for some dough, maybe about $35,000 for first. I remember Davis Love, Calcavecchia, Sauers, Ian Baker-Finch, Robert Gamez and a number of others like that.

Anyway, for some reason a whole bunch of these guys were playing on fast forward! I have never seen golfers, any golfers play that fast in my entire life. Not all of them were but many of them were--and certainly none of them were playing slow, all of them were playing a lot faster than regular golfers, that's for sure. I don't know why or what they thought they were doing but it got pretty funny and a bit problematic. I remember they were playing in threesome and Gamez's group seemed intent on getting all their balls in the air on approach shots at the same time, if possible.

This particular group was going so fast they got jammed up  behind the group ahead and eventually actually joined up with the group ahead and created a sixsome for about half a hole until the tournament committee got wind of it and told them to get back in their original position!

Damnedest thing I ever saw and they were by no means the only ones playing super fast--many others were too.

So I don't know what it is that makes them so diliberate in regular events but this showed me they certainly don't have to play slow or always play slow, and if they want to they can play one helluva lot faster than most of us can!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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BillV

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2002, 09:04:13 AM »
The tour is an entertainment venue and they have schedules to  keep.  Ever notice how the usually fill the allotted time perfectly?

It is also necessary to play at he pace of the slowest player, that's why tone-a-mints are the way they are.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2002, 10:23:57 AM »
BillV:

It is necessary to play at the pace of the slowest player.
That's why Nicklaus decided to speed up his pace, because
he realized he was hurting the others he was playing with.

Hopefully Garcia and Chamblee will come to this realization
(epiphany?) some day as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2002, 12:34:28 PM »
I just read Brad Klein's post about Garcia and I agree with him! There's no way Garcia can continue to regrip the club twenty times on every shot and play good golf for long--no way! He's gonna have to give that up soon!

I can't imagine that the kid regrips the club twenty times on every single practice shot he hits much less on the course. My God, if the kid keeps doing that he's gonna have his hands in casts with severe carpal tunnel syndrome by the time he's 25 years old!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2002, 04:57:10 PM »
From this week's Golfweek:

What makes Sergio tick?

Sergio Garcia added an element to his squeeze-and-waggle
routine.  While on the practice range Saturday morning, the
young Spaniard went through 9 waggles and regrips, then
he tapped his right thumb three times before pulling the
trigger.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2002, 03:01:04 AM »
from March 1 GolfWorld:

Heat's on Garcia ... :-[
As each week passes, Sergio Garcia's pre-shot waggle becomes more of an issue. There were 36 re-grips and finger twitches before his opening drive in the WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship, and judging from player and fan response (on The Golf Channel's Viewers Forum), the Spaniard is getting on everybody's nerves. "I counted a few, just for fun," admitted Charles Howell III after losing to Garcia in the second round. Since they're friendly, Howell isn't going to criticize Garcia. That's the job of Scott McCarron, who eliminated Garcia in the third round. "I never watched Sergio hit all day long," said McCarron. "I stared at blades of grass, drank some water, read the paper, all kinds of stuff." An unidentified woman even called the tournament office demanding that Garcia stop squeezing leather and start hitting shots. Garcia is getting more and more defensive every time the subject is brought up. "Obviously if I think it would hurt, I would stop," he says. "If it bothers you, don't watch."

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Robert_Walker

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2002, 05:18:46 AM »
I say let Sergio Waggle as long as he maintains his position on the course!!!
 :) :) :) :) ;) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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