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Paul Richards

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Defending Slow Play
« on: January 10, 2002, 02:43:49 PM »
A recent thread talked here on GCA talked about slow play.

A few noted, including myself, how incredibly slow  :'( :'( that Sergio Garcia had played at Kapalua, where he won. :)

It is my thesis here that slow play by the tournament
professionals on TV translates into slow play on our golf
courses today.

The 3 1/2 hour round doesn't exist today in America, thanks
in part to the Jack Nicklaus', Bernhard Langer's, and, now,
the Sergio Garcia's of the televised golf world.

Sergio must be really catching it after the announcers
pointed out his slow play at Kapalua.

This article was in today's Chicago Tribune:

CHECKING IN WITH GOLF
Garcia defends slow style of play
Won't hit shot `until I'm ready'

By Ed Sherman
Tribune golf reporter
Published January 10, 2002

Sergio Garcia is over the ball . . . he's over the ball . . . he's still over the ball . . .

Garcia's preshot routine can be maddening. He seems intent on setting the record for regripping the club. At one point last week, ESPN counted 25 regrips for one shot.

But after winning the season-opening Mercedes Championships on Sunday, Garcia isn't about to change his routine. Or apologize for it either.

"I feel I'm not going to hit a shot until I'm ready," Garcia said. "If it takes me 100 regrips, I'm going to take 100 regrips, I don't care. It's the way I play."

Garcia then turned the tables on the media.

"I don't say to you guys, `You shouldn't grip the pen that way when you write, You shouldn't blink as many times as you do when you're on the computer,'" Garcia said. "I'm not going to tell you to do something you don't like to do."

Garcia says he does the routine because it makes him feel "comfortable." Winning also makes him feel good. He has won three PGA Tour events since last May.

Garcia still hasn't turned 22. The opening victory could be an indicator that Garcia will have a breakthrough year in 2002.

"I really feel like my game is getting to a point where I can win a major," Garcia said. "I gave myself a couple chances last year. I just didn't win. I want to be able to put myself in that position again this year."

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_Conley

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Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2002, 02:51:56 PM »
While Sergio's time over the ball is excessive, too many recreational golfers fail to recognize the most important factor for pace of play - being ready to hit or putt when it is your turn.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2002, 03:01:14 PM »
Sergio has a real problem here, and seriously needs to visit our own Dr. Katz.  I predict in a couple of years or hopefully much sooner he is out of this preshot fad. If he isn't he's gonna be in a psyche ward.   ::)

I don't think, however, that the golfing public is going to move into double digits in preshot waggles or "regrips." They wanna hit the *&^*& outta da ball and right now!  If my playing partners head in this direction, though, the ball's gonna disappear from in front of their feet before they get to #10...

 ;D  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Kane

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Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2002, 03:02:17 PM »
When Sergio is playing for millions of dollars, and major titles, maybe he is entitled to take his time if thats what makes him feel comfortable.  But he must remember that he is a role model and people will waste time just like him if they think it will improve their game.

When the stakes are high, ie. the PGA Tour, there might be an excuse for it.  But when the stakes are a couple of dollars or drinks in the bar, it is a different matter altogether.

If you are doing it for a living, you can take as long as you want, within reason.  But there needs to be a process of educating amateur golfers that spending long amounts of time delaying the bad shot you are going to hit is pointless.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2002, 03:50:23 PM »
Paul, i agree jack N set the game back 20 years with his slow play. many think you can sit there an daydream for 5 minutes and take the same of bad swing they would on a 3 count.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich_Goodale

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2002, 04:19:13 PM »
Someone who would know once told me that he/she watched Nicklaus at a USGA event, where his group was being timed.  This person timed the Man himself and noted that it took him well over a minute to execute one particular shot--much more than the 40 or so seconds allowed by the rules in place at the time.  This person also happened to be standing next to the USGA recorder and saw that person write down Jack's time on her sheet:

"30 seconds"

Does this sort of hypocrisy surprise anybody on this site?

Rich

PS--in the real world, i.e. our world, John Conley's point about being ready to play when it is your turn would solve 90% of the problem.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Doug Wright

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Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2002, 04:28:25 PM »
Rich,

"Does this sort of hypocrisy surprise anybody on this site?"

No.

But then I knew it was a rhetorical question... ;D

You gotta admit, Rich, that even if everyone was ready to play when it was their turn and they then pulled a Sergio (or Jack), we'd still be in a world of hurt.  :-X
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Robert_Walker

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2002, 04:34:27 PM »
"Someone who would know once told me......"

Now that is a GREAT SOURCE!

GMAB!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich_Goodale

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2002, 04:47:38 PM »
Robert

That person is not unaware of this site.  If he/she wishes to confirm what I said, he/she can.  I am 100% confident in that person's integrity.  What is your problem?

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Robert_Walker

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2002, 05:00:53 PM »
He/ She/ It is not a reliable source. period. Give me the name of the person who witnessed the above. Tell me who was writing the time down. Who put Jack on the clock? When was it? Where was it?
No problem, just flat out unbelieveable. ;) :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich_Goodale

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2002, 05:14:24 PM »
Robert

We all believe what we want to believe.  I shall say no more.

Slainte

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
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Rich_Goodale

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2002, 06:06:23 PM »
Doug

Our messages crossed.  You are, of course, (W)right.

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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APBernstein

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2002, 06:21:31 PM »
Rich:

This isn't Watergate.  It's Jack Nicklaus and a stopwatch.  Your "informant" doesn't even need to have a secret name.  From your posts, I think many on this site would agree to believe you credible enough to trust such a story.  As to Robert Walker's protests, who knows.

---------------------------

I think that, while the professional game does have a profound effect on the game and the time it takes to play it, there are other factors that can help.  In a private club setting, the head professional, in my experience, can greatly reduce the time that a round takes through simple steps and with relative ease.  A ranger, unless he is familiar and friendly with the membership, is not the answer.  While formal steps from the club, such as reserving tee-times for faster groups may help, the professional talking to each group and stressing the importance of quick play has a strong effect.  Much more so than simply writing the same speach on a scorecard.  The human touch works much better.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2002, 08:31:19 PM »
Chris,
    It doesn't matter one bit that Sergio is playing for lots of money!  It is a rule (that is never enforced) that there is only 40 seconds to hit the ball!  That the Tour (and the USGA, since they don't enforce either) doesn't care is the problem.  If the Tour or USGA started timing him and giving him warnings then stroke penalties, as they should, then you're @#$! right he's gonna change his ways!  But it'll never happen.

Any insight, Robert Walker?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2002, 08:58:14 PM »
I thought I remembered the time limits to be: first player to ball allowed 60 seconds, 45 seconds @ for the remainder of the group, but I'm not sure.
I am pretty sure about this though. As long as the telecasts finish up near to their the allotted time I don't think we'll see the Tour penalizing too many players. Maybe the occasional sacrificial lamb if slow play becomes too noticeable but nothing
too serious.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2002, 10:21:50 PM »
Scott,

You've caused me to change my tune!  If there is a rule that he is breaking, that should come down on him like a stack of bricks.  I wasn't aware of the forty second rule, but now that I see him breaking the rules every time he plays, I don't see why he should get away with it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2002, 03:38:12 AM »
After a round on the PGA Tour, you may hear about a group
that got "hurried" after they had been "put on the clock." :o

When's the last time you actually heard about someone on
Tour being penalized for slow play?   :'(

Me'thinks that a few well-timed penalty strokes would send
a VERY strong message.

Fining a touring pro a $1000 here or there is not sending a
message, but that well-timed 2-stroke penalty would. :o

Just imagine, final round last weekend, Sergio standing over the ball forever, and the official walking up and tacking on a 2-stroke penalty for slow play .....

Wouldn't that send a real message? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

guest

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2002, 03:57:36 AM »


If a behavior or style is tolerated enough it becomes the standard.  The inmates are taking over the asylum.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2002, 04:01:47 AM »
Like they say in that beer commercial,

"TRUE."

 :'( :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Robert_Walker

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2002, 05:53:28 AM »
Credible people can make outrageous and unsubstantiated statements, and find friends that will believe those statements.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2002, 06:22:38 AM »
Since that was directed at me (I assume), I see why.  I misread the above post which said that there was a 40-second clock "that was in place at the time".  I missed that last part and assumed it was still a rule.  Here's the USGA rule 6-7 on slow play:
Note 2: For the purpose of preventing slow play, the Committee may, in the conditions of a competition (Rule 33-1), lay down pace of play guidelines including maximum periods of time allowed to complete a stipulated round, a hole or a stroke. In stroke play only, the Committee may, in such a condition, modify the penalty for a breach of this Rule as follows:

 
First offense — One stroke;
Second offense — Two strokes.
For subsequent offense — Disqualification.  
----------------
So, there is no rule per se unless "the committee" decides to make one.  Just great.  Slow play will thus go unchecked forever (my opinion).  Look what happened to Nicklaus years ago.  Do you really think (assuming USGA rules apply in Tour competition also) that Sergio will get warned?  Ever?  The Tour wants his presence as a Tiger rival badly for rating$, etc. and the USGA just "gave in" (my opinion, as others here said also) to slow play by double-teeing the Open.  I know they said it was for weather reasons, but, (my opinion again) I think slow play is ALSO a reason.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rich_Goodale

Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2002, 06:26:05 AM »
Robert

Seemingly "outrageous" statements can in fact be true, and I, for one, never ask my friends to "substantiate" statements they bring up in casual conversation, particularly when we are just talking about a game.  As Andrew implies, we are not talking about issues of National Security here! ;)

I agree with the others who believe that if the Tours and others who run high-pofile tournaments like the USGA, R&A and Master's committee really wanted to do something about slow play they would have done so long ago, and what they would have done is in fact given out penalty strokes, and given them out to the highest profile habitual offenders, like Langer and Nicklaus and Garcia.

But, nobody has or had the guts to do so.

Jim K

I am sure you are right about the exact nature of the times allowed for taking shots (you do not need to reply with any substantiation).  So was "Deep Bunker" when he/she relayed the outrageous story to me.  The substance of the story is firm in my memory, some of the minutiae are not. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2002, 07:33:33 AM »
Rich --

Deep Bunker! Priceless. I trust that you will protect your source's identity till your dying day (or longer).

I will be happy to advise you of your legal options, should you receive any subpoenas in this matter.

Cordially,

Dan Kelly
Managing Partner
Stupid, Petty & Whiny, L.L.P.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2002, 12:48:09 PM »
Gotta defend full practice swings here.  Full practice swings are a part of many people's pre-shot routines, including mine, and I can walk and carry 18 holes in 2 hours.  Is that too slow?  A full swing vs. a half swing is the difference of a second max.  What's the difference between a pre-shot practice swing and a pre-putt practice putt?  I do think that more than one practice swing is too much, except for pitches/chips, where pros recommend two.

A practice swing next to the ball is not "at address" as you make standing in the batter's box sound like.  They are different.

A practice swing is getting the feel of the shot before you hit it.  Many pros don't have practice swings in their pre-shot routine because they bang thousands of balls all year long and are good enough not to need it.  I need it and I'm not a slow player.

Sergio Garcia saying he'll take as long as he wants to re-gripping (and every kid in America hearing that) is what's wrong, not a one-second practice swing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defending Slow Play
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2002, 05:37:40 PM »
Scott:

You're correct.  The problem isn't the practice swing, per se.

The problem is that the person TAKING the practice swing
needs to be ready to hit the ball when it's HIS TURN.

Sergio obviously ISN'T ready to hit when it's his turn.

Millions of Americans see this, and think it's OK to take all
day! :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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