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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chicago vs Phillie
« on: April 03, 2002, 08:18:22 PM »
Both cities played a HUGE role in the development of golf course architecture in the United States.

My question is this: roll the clock forward 80-100 years, which one has done the better job of preserving its classic courses?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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R.S._Barker

Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2002, 08:45:56 PM »
Ran,

If your referring to which will keep and maintain it's courses in better condition in the next 100 years, I'd soundly have to say " BOTH !! ".

What I see is a realization in the not too distant future that clubs and their members like Chicago, will finally understand just how lovely and complete their respective courses truly are. Not to say they don't understand that now, but I hope the point stands.

Because of great golf historians like our own George Bahto, clubs are just now starting to try and " remember " their course's gloried past...and in the future, it will be even more important to keep old traditions alive and well.

As land in the USA becomes even more overburdened with people, land will become even more of an asset, and though I hope this is not the case, our country could well see the same overcrowding of and tight closeknit courses like what has happened in the Orient.

Sorry that I didn't really take one side over the other, but I'm a fan of both cities amd their golf tradition...and wouldst rather straddle the fence...8)

R.S. Barker
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2002, 04:47:33 AM »
RS and Ran:

Good example here - both Huntingdon Valley and Skokie
have done restorations of their classic courses with Ron
Prichard, and both turned out excellently.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

redanman

That's P-H-I-L-L-Y
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2002, 05:30:03 AM »
Good point, Ran.  Having lived in both areas, they have both done very well, but do  you think better than the Metro area of NYC as well?

I think the point is that the west coast dropped the ball, not that Chi-town and Philly have a great job.  Most areas of the country have allowed the courses of note to be modified and especially overgrown with trees.  

George Thomas's work, on the other hand is nearly NLE.

The important thing at this point is that many are now aware of the existence (With very notable exceptions  8) ) of classic architecture and the need to preserve or restore it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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TEPaul

Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2002, 06:21:59 PM »
What an interesting question. If you rolled the clock back 80-100 years and then looked at Philly or Chicago courses today compared to then you'd probably find amazing similarities. Not just those two towns either but classic courses all over America.

And the reasons for it are interesting but basically the same problems were repeated almost everywhere over and over again. The reasons are not always that obvious but they sure were and still are pervasive all over the place.

But the better question is which town is doing the better job now of understanding what happened and restoring back, maybe not 80 years but at least to a good degree of basic design intent recovery?

I'd say no town is really out ahead on this--but that it's happening all over America--I think a critical mass is forming or already has and things are picking up in good restorations bigtime.

I don't even think it has anything to do with architects either! I think the whole thing is the work of one character! This guy  Ran Morrissett and an Internet website that sort of popped up out in Australia called Golfclubatlas!

I don't even know what the web title Golfclubatlas really has to do with restoration either--except it sounds sort of global to me!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2002, 08:46:56 PM »
Not that knowledgeable about either (except I love the pit at Gulph Mills).  But does Philly have a course and club as untouched as Chicago Golf Club?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

schoeller

Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2002, 06:33:12 AM »
On the question of Philly having any classic courses as untouched as Chicago Golf Club, probably "yes" and "no."

While certainly not the same level as Chicago GC, my understanding is that Whitemarsh Valley is largely as Geo. Thomas designed it around 1910.  Also within the Philadelphia district, I know the folks at Trenton County Club cannot document their course's original architect nor any restorations to the course.  Trenton dates from 1900, and it clearly has that funky character of a course where virtually no land was moved and the green sites appear to have be wherever nature found them.

On the other side, virtually all of the bigger "name" courses in Philly have been altered since their original design, eg, Merion, Aronimink, Phillly Country, Huntingdon Valley, Manufacturers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ran Morrissett

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Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2002, 09:33:03 AM »
Chicago has really stepped up the action in the past few years.

Beverly is looking at properly re-doing the bunkers that it had just done not so well 5/6 years ago, Skokie has undergone a startlingly transformation and completely excised the poor work done there from the 1960s-1995, Shoreacres and Chicago GC continue to refine the details within their courses (though I doubt Chicago GC will ever opt to reclaim its gigantic 9th green), Olympia Fields North has re-introduced rugged and deep bunkering into its course, Onwentsia went from a bland parkland course into something more special and unique, Prichard is in at Lake Shore, etc.

The trend for greater Chicago is definitely in an upwards direction if you're an admirer of classic architectural features, that's for sure!

As for Phillie, I'm more familiar with those course outside it like Lancaster and Lehigh that have recaptured Flynn's touches than I am with those closer in (save for Huntingdon Valley and the execllent work done there). I understand that Aronimink has almost completed a Skokie-isque full recovery that would bring a smile to Ross's face?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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wsmorrison

Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2002, 12:40:31 PM »
In regards to Chicago vs Philly (Is Ran a Phillies fan by any chance as evidenced by his spelling?)

In researching Flynn's golf courses, I would say that Glen View in Golf, IL outside of Chicago has gone back to the original Flynn layout with remarkable accuracy.  I have not yet seen the course, however I have seen their course drawings and aerials from the era of construction.  Although the course had strayed from the original design, they have gone back to the original course design.

In the Philly area, my home course of Rolling Green Golf Club is in the mid nineties in terms of percentage of original design.  Certainly the fairways have narrowed some and a few fairway bunkers have been placed further down (#1 right), otherwise it is very close to as designed, especially the greensites.  I would like to see them remove a few evergreens however, I'm sure Mike Malone is in agreement there.

Tom Paul:
Your ability to read aerials is far superior to my own (I'm just learning how) and you're better than just about anyone, what would you say as to RGGC percentage of originality?  I'm certainly counting on your help in this area for the book project.

Regards to all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Will E

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Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2002, 06:42:36 AM »
just saw Glen View on Thursday (some of it in a snowstorm). The restoration work looks fantastic, has anyone out there played it?? It was very interesting to look at the "before" pictures in the club after seeing the super restoration. Great bunkering, routing and green complexes, why haven't we (I) heard more about it ? I wasn't around for the Open it hosted.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2002, 06:46:12 AM »
shooter:

Dave Esler was the architect who redid Glen View.  

He is also the architect of the new Black Sheep Club out
by Aurora.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Chicago vs Phillie
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2002, 08:08:08 AM »
Paul,
Thanks for the info, I'm aware of David's work and am anxious to see his own project at Black Sheep in Sugar Grove. I just got some photos sent to me of BS and it looks great. David's bunkering at Glen View and Black Sheep has the rough C&C, DeVries, Doak look.
Have you played Glen View?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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