[Tommy_Naccarato]

Here is a before and after of the 8th.

[ed_getka]

Nice pix Tommy. That will be the toughest pin position I think with the shelf that raises up behind that pot bunker. The contour raising up flows beautifully and getting within 10 feet of that pin will require nerves of steel. Pot in front, back left drops off about 6 feet to fairway height grass giving interesting options on how to play back up to the hole. Bail out right to middle of green makes for a relatively routine par, but to challenge the hole up there will be interesting.
What other pin positions do you think will be particularly challenging on this green?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Great before and after. Any more of RC holes

[Ran Morrissett]

Is this RC's equivalent to 17 at Sand Hills - a little 140 yarder?

How many sq. ft. is the green?

Does it generally play into the prevailing wind?

I assume it's a grass slope around the back?

What a sucker hole location the day the pic was taken!

It's an interesting excercise to line up the cactus behind the green and see how the original land forms were used in creating the hole.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The previous Rustic thread had the estimated yardage for the "Short" #8 as 131 yards.  

[A_Clay_Man]

So refreshing not to see a cart path. WTG boys

[GeoffreyC]

Tommy

That's textbook minimalism.  If you have any other examples, I'd love to see them.  

This exercise really helps me to visualize what it might be like out in the field looking for golf holes and routing plans.

THANKS!

[JakaB]

I noticed a backstop built into the green...is this a result of the public nature of the course....what other concessions had to be made due to the differences in public vs private design.

[RJ_Daley]

I urge our viewers to take the time to really study the before and after pictures.  Rather than look at the obvious eyecandy of the green (which is awesome) look at the surrounding land before and after.  Note that the entire ground and native plants from the teeing ground right up to the greens surrounds is almost untouched.  It still has the same exact natural contour and only some thinning and turning over of cover to expose some native sand soil as waste area is observed.  The land at the rightside of the pic as it sweeps in towards the green its slope and native cover are the same.  The greensite itself is only pushed up a little to gain some profile and depth for bunkering.  But if you look at the level of the right side of the green and the previous natural grade, you will see that basically only the left side of the green complex was pushed up minimumly.  Then look beyond the green.   Nothing is changed.  The fairway beyond to the right is again at natural grade.  No wavy gravy fairways, no containment mounds.  Basically, just turn the cover over, work in the cover plant material into the native soil for organic content, put in shallow irrigation lines, prep a seed bed, plant-fertilize and start growing grass.  

Now, imagine these same minimal soil and growing conditions with dramatic sand hill terrain, prairie conditions, and endless vistas, and you have what is available in western Nebraska with none of the California enviro and cost of living hassles.

[THuckaby2]

EXTREMELY cool, more drooling here.

And as opposed to Nebraska, it's gonna be playable year-round!  Kinda makes it worth the hassle.

Sorry RJD, I gotta stick up for CA when I can.

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Regarding Barney's question about backboards, I think it is a fair question.  At 135-140 yards, do you think that a private club situation catering to the higher calibre player, and not concerned with pace of play for those always having to play back onto the green from rear is desirable?  I don't think so in either public or private, in this holes case.  Particularly with the firm and fast conditions this course is designed for.  Otherwise, you get criticism that no one can hold the green, even at 135 with a mega 9 iron-wedge, or into the wind, after it takes the firm fast bounce.  I think the backboards are essential here and still don't guarantee that one can hold the green to the proper proportion of those that will fail to do so.

[Dan Kelly]

Looks terrific. Though who can tell from pictures -- right?

Tom IV --

Here's another difference between California and Nebraska:

In Nebraska, you could see those mountains in the distance every day!

Sorry. The rest of us have to make fun of California every chance you give us.

But you understand that. Five months of ice and snow can make a Midwesterner a little envious -- even of a Californian!

[THuckaby2]

Dan Kelly - fair enough.  This is SoCal after all, which truly is a different state from the REAL California.

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Just for the record, one could play every day for the next week in a sweater at Wild Horse, except Thursday you might need to double bag yourself.  You can check it out!  

http://www.weather.com/weather/local/69101

Also, for the first time in a while, Green Bay had as nice of weather this past weekend as San Jose at the senior tournament.  It is just that the nice weather didn't quite melt all of our snow covered fairways and greens and ice covered water features on the golf courses.  :-/

[JakaB]

I think the green is an illusion of greatness...the backstop is not needed on a 131 yd hole...as always I wait to be proven wrong but this seems to be a modern convenience for our feel good society.  The bunkers are so far from the green for a short hole I just don't see the danger...no trouble short...no trouble long...no trouble right...Oh my God don't pull it and you might make a bogey and not cash your guberment check...its tough in so cal.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Which mountains in Nebraska would you be talking about, Dan?  

I was thinking the same thing as Dick, that the "backstop" (if it isn't a back tier!), helps keeps some shots on the green, but recovering from over the green is much tougher.

I supposed the percentages would be in favor, but being a private club doesn't necessarily translate into "higher-calibre" players, Huntingdon Valley and Olympic, notwithstanding.  

JakaB, there will be plenty of players who will miss this green, and by a lot.  You can't always speak from a low-handicapper's perspective.

[THuckaby2]

RJD - just messin' with ya.  Oh man, San Jose did indeed feel like Green Bay this past weekend... poor Sr. Tour boys did indeed suffer.  Just bad timing though - it's gonna be 70 degrees today!

TH

[RJ_Daley]

JakaB, if you see anything short of that green as a mere sandy or an up and down from a grassy lie, then please let me carry your bag on the senior tour.  I can use the scratch, if you have anything left after the crazy bets.     Do you really think it is a yawner if you come up short and find yourself in that first phonebooth pot, or that deep and steeply flashed scooped out bunker on the left or the long bunker shot from the first one nearest the tee and furthest from the green?  That grassy swale between the bunkers looks like even your buddy Floppy McChokelstein would be sucking wind to get it up and down where that pin is.

I'd be begging for it to be long, even if over the backboards.  What do you hit there in a 20-25MPH wind from 140?

[Dan Kelly]

Scott --

Here in the Midwest, those Sandhills of Nebraska are considered Mountains!

They're not exactly the Great Smoky Mountains -- but we love them, nonetheless.  

Dick Daley --

Your post about sweater weather in the 'Husker State raises an interesting point, about which I have wondered for years now -- including, lately, here in this DG, where several people have noted the "short" golf season in Nebraska. I have a question (or a couple) about that which I've never had occasion to ask. I'll ask you -- or anyone else who has insight here:

Why does Sand Hills observe such a short season? What is it -- June to late September?

Surely the weather would allow them to open the golf course WAY earlier than June and keep it open later in the fall. Hell, here in south-central Minnesota, which is considerably north of the Sandhills, we're disappointed if the golf courses aren't open the first 10 days of April, and we're bummed beyond repair if they close before mid-November.

I'm looking at that Weather Forecast link you gave us -- and those temperatures look (at least to me, if not to you Californians) GREAT for golf! High-40s to mid-50s? In the words of CuriousJJ: Bring It On Bitch!

What are Wild Horse's typical opening and closing dates?

[TEPaul]

Truly instructive to not just see a photo of this hole but the photo of the hole's raw site landform juxtaposed.

RJ, put together much good analysis of how and why it was done, what that means etc.

The tie-in to the landform and it's natural grade on the right seems classic in minimalistic construction. It's a bit hard to see where the natural landform on the right and the green form starts and if it was just blended or whether a swale existed there naturally or was created. But whatever was done from the tee it sure looks seamlessly blended together whether it is or was or not!

RJ mentioned the constructed architecture of the green itself and how that allowed bunkering to be set into it. That's sure true enough but in that natural swale into which the green was set obviously needed the green to be "constructed up", so to speak, as much or more for drainage than anything else. Setting that green down more into the natural swale would  have been a potential mistake and dangerous, I'm sure.

But for more discussion on minimalism and "natural site tie-in" just look at the overall "architectural lines" of the green form, the green surface, the bunkering profiles and lines and even the sweep of the chipping area off to the left.

The sharp drop on the front of the green (darkly shadowed) contributes to some excellent visual reference (can't tell if there's a bunker there or chipping area) but that green front visual reference is very interestingly "offset" by the apparently extreme low profile of the green surface itself to the eye of the golfer on the tee. If this photo is the way it looks on the tee to the golfer I can see a first timer struggling bigtime in gauging the green surface's depth even on so short a hole! Great stuff and subtle architecural deception!

But the overall lines of what was built with everything else that was out there first is so good! Ideally, I would think this kind of thing would make the golfer search for his reference points visually and otherwise (aim) and make him concentrate so much better than on the more modern visual and strategic "roadmapping" designs and make him come up with his own basic "strategies".

I think if a course's architecture makes you search instead of "grabbing your eye" architecturally it'll be so much better!

[Rick Shefchik]

Ran,

Not to take anything away from what looks like an outstanding short par 3, but I find this one much less terrifying than #17 at Sand Hills. There is essentially no golf course if you miss SH#17 left or right or long, and (as I recall) just a short apron of fairway in front, severely sloped. Since we had a steady 20+ mph wind the days we played there (never favoring), even the relatively short distance from tee to green was extraordinarily intimidating.

I wouldn't necessarily label these pictured areas surrounding the 8th green at Rustic Creek "bail-outs," but at least looking at the picture I don't think I'd get the same feeling of impending disaster here with a similar 20+ mph wind. I consider SH#17 the toughest short-to-medium length par 3 I've ever played, and I've seen nothing to rival it.

I concur with Tommy, however; great use of the land to make this hole.

[JakaB]

I am sorry if my comments about the backstop on the green are taken in a negative light...I just think posts like Rick's support my contention that it is one of many evils hoisted on the public golfer "for their own good".

[Jeff_McDowell]

RJ,

I agree with your description of the amount of construction needed to build this green, but my immediate thought was that this was a constructed green, and not as minimal as you lead on.

It looks to me like the left side of the green was raised about four feet. To me that's starting to stray from minimalism.

The hole is beautiful, the bunkers work nicely, and there is definitely no superfluous support mounding.

I guess how you define minimalism depends on your point of view.

JakaB, the backstop you referred to can go both ways. Sure it will help keep a ball from rolling off the back of a green, but if you do go beyond the green the back stop will make your recovery shot more difficult.

[Geoff Shackelford]

I don't know about roaring...but #8 is about 130 from the tips, shorter from the middle and front tees, and certainly not as tough as #17 at Sand Hills (I prefer that hole at the 100 yard middle tee...it's just not much fun from the back!). Ran, the wind is coming from the left most of the time, though it's a bit tricky to detect on this part of the course, and after two years I still haven't figured out why. The drop off around the left and rear is closer to 15 feet above the base. It will not be cut too tight, otherwise people would be there all day. The green slope was a Wagner effort, with Gil tinkering some too. Oddly we didn't engage in too much discussion here, so the backboard just happened, wish I could declare it as something that Gil labored over for hours at the drafting table, but hopefully it's not viewed as a containment bump, but instead, something for the local-knowledge type to throw a shot up against and hope for a little spin back. We did discuss a bunker front right that was roughed out but which did not make the final edit. The concept was a "peninsula" green from the earliest of days when Gil and Jim spotted this one.

I guess definitions of minimalism are a bit subjective, as I found out when some of the Lost Canyons people declared their courses minimalist at 1 million cubic yards moved for 36. This green did have dirt dumped on the left side to create the left pins as Jeff shrewdly observed, and if you look at the dead tree stump behind the green in both pictures you can see the differences. On the other hand, this, 12 and 16 involved our most extensive addition/earthmoving for a green site and it wasn't much, so in that since I'd say things were still pretty minimally changed, even on this hole. Maybe Brad K has one of those fancy academic terms to describe this form of minimalism, like neo-non-essential-minimalism?
Geoff

[Dan Kelly]

Geoff S --

I wish you'd told me, in 1996, that Sand Hills 17 was more fun from the short tee.

Mr. Shefchik and I kept playing it from the back tee, into a right-to-left gale -- and I think I was 7-over in three trips.

I might have been able to make a bogey from the lower tee!

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