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TEPaul

Personally, I think North Shore's architectural investigation is the most successful as well as the most interesting to date on this website (and I've been on this site from the beginning) and for a whole host of reasons that should be recapped and appreciated by both contributors and viewers of GOFLCLUBATLAS.com alike.

I'll elaborate later on some of the factors that impress me the most but for now some of those reasons would be the question of the original architect appears to have been raised on here first as well as the ways some of the participants on this website went about this investigation for the club and then with the club.

There have been other interesting historical architect/architecture investigations on here of remarkable comprehensiveness that would include Cobbs Creek, Atlantic City, and Philmont but North Shore's seems to have some additional factors that we should all be able to learn from in the future.

Carl Nichols

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I can't answer the question, since I've only been on here for about 2 years, but at the very least it's a really great story and outcome. 

Mike Cirba

Tom,

How would you define "successful"?

Would it require some concrete action be taken as a result of the findings, such as a restoration attempt, or is it defined by arduousness of the investigator(s) and complexity of the mystery?

Robert Emmons

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i would nominate Cobbs creek....that to me has been the most interesting and probbably will have the most impact upon it's course....RHE

PCCraig

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Personally, I think North Shore's architectural investigation is the most successful as well as the most interesting to date on this website (and I've been on this site from the beginning) and for a whole host of reasons that should be recapped and appreciated by both contributors and viewers of GOFLCLUBATLAS.com alike.

I'll elaborate later on some of the factors that impress me the most but for now some of those reasons would be the question of the original architect appears to have been raised on here first as well as the ways some of the participants on this website went about this investigation for the club and then with the club.

There have been other interesting historical architect/architecture investigations on here of remarkable comprehensiveness that would include Cobbs Creek, Atlantic City, and Philmont but North Shore's seems to have some additional factors that we should all be able to learn from in the future.

It is certainly itís most recognized architectural investigation.
H.P.S.

Mike Sweeney

Tom,

I personally would nominate Pine Valley. I recognize that some of what happened around Pine Valley was personally uncomfortable for you. However, I found the story of Crump and his collaborations with so many famous architects (before and after Crump's death), the discovery of the unfortunate nature of Crump's death and the discovery of the Colt routing map by Dr Gene on ebay made for the most interesting discovery.

JLahrman

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Tom,

How would you define "successful"?

Would it require some concrete action be taken as a result of the findings, such as a restoration attempt, or is it defined by arduousness of the investigator(s) and complexity of the mystery?

Also, would it be viewed to be as successful if the end result was that the originally accredited architect did indeed design it?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 04:55:56 PM by JLahrman »

TEPaul

MikeC:

What I particularly like about this historical architect/architectural investigation is the way it originated on here and then played out with the club itself and its important participation in the investigation.

You can see from the concurrent North Shore thread on here that George Bahto started it about five months ago. Read his first few posts. From his interest and participation at the behest of the NS super it seems that now at least one fascinating green surface will be saved and that's very important.

But what I particularly like and think makes this investigation really successful is the manner in which George Bahto, Phil Young and Steve Shaeffer first collaborated with one another and most importantly the way Steve Shaeffer went to the club itself FIRST before he put the truly significant material he found in New York on this website. He did mention what he was doing to a few but he prefaced it by explaining to them that his intention was that it would not be put on here before he had the opportunity to approadh the club with it first. I think that approach just reflects well on this website and for future researchers of clubs and courses who really do need to establish a relationship with the subject club first to be able to do a comprehensive and successful architectural investigation and historical analysis.

And obviously the way the club then contacted an architect experienced with Macdonald/Raynor architecture as a result of this investigation (on here) as well that prominent article on this investigation by John Paul Newport is the pay-off for this kind of intelligent and considerate approach with this significant find with the club.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 06:03:33 PM by TEPaul »

David Lott

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I've been mostly a lurker here for about six years. 250 posts in 6 years--some people seem to get that many in a week!

I've seen this site get better, largely because more people are doing more factual investigation, rather than just spewing opinion. As a trained historian and lawyer, I respect good research. The work on North Shore was especially fine, because of the digging into archives that are not on the internet. I'm sure there's lot's more material out there.

I'm waiting for someone who knows agronomy and golf course maintenance to look more closely into the history of turf and its effect on architecture and on the evolution of courses. The focus has been mostly on trees (or lack thereof), rough and greens. There's more out there: effects of climate, disease, the impact of carts, maintenance equipment and techniques. Many worlds left to explore beyond routing and hole design.
David Lott

Chip Gaskins

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Tom,

I personally would nominate Pine Valley. I recognize that some of what happened around Pine Valley was personally uncomfortable for you. However, I found the story of Crump and his collaborations with so many famous architects (before and after Crump's death), the discovery of the unfortunate nature of Crump's death and the discovery of the Colt routing map by Dr Gene on ebay made for the most interesting discovery.

Mike

Any idea the name of that thread?

TEPaul

From Phil Young's Post (#294) to Tom MacWood on the "Re: North Shore Long Island; Tillie---Raynor?" thread.




Tom,

   You have presented as someone who was an architect hired by North Shore to serve in that capacity and also as a greenkeeper/professional.
   I maintain that the opposite is true. That he was hired as greenkeeper/professional and that he was used by the club during the construction of the course to oversee the turf grow-in, primarily for the greens. Since you ask, the following quotes are but some of what you have posted on this thread:
   "Glenwood ran into financial problems in 1914 and was sold to the Harmonie Club, which eventually changed its name to North Shore. In 1915 Robert White completely redesigned the course though he did keep five holes from the Emmet-Hubbell course. I believe he remained at the club for a number of years as the pro/greenkeeper."
   "I have not found any mention Tilly being involved at any time, and the course is not included in his advertised list of designs published in the mid-20s. I've found no mention of Raynor either. I believe the bulk of the credit should go to White."
   "At this point the evidence points toward White. He is the only architect whose name can be positively linked to the project."
   "All the evidence I've seen (and there is considerable evidence) points to Emmet - White."
   You even tried top pass White off as the man who designed the changes to Shawnee in 1913 and that he was hired to do so, This despite Tilly's very clear and unambiguous statement that he was hired as greenkeeper only and that he was put in charge of the turf grow-in AFTER the changes had benn both designed and completed!
   "By the way Robert White was hired by Shawnee in 1913 (the course opened in 1911) to make some changes, after he had been involved in major changes at Ravisloe with William Watson and Aleck Brauer. Are you certain Tilly was involved in the Shawnee changes in 1913?"
   Yet here we also learn that Watson was the architect there and that Brauer was the man in charge of the project and that White himself stated that he was the greenkeeper/professional during these changes and that NONE of the greens were changed since 1902!
   Tom, you are the one who keeps trying to magnify White's role at North Shore. Again, his later accomplishments as both a professional and architect were outstanding. To ascribe them to him before they actually happened is simply not proper.
   You asked me earlier a question that I refrained from answering, but I'll repeat it as it becomes in interesting example of how you choose to use the facts presented:

   "Are you disregarding this excerpt from Steve's timeline? "On March 13, 1915, at the Clubís Annual meeting, it was reported that the original course was under 5000 yards and that Raynor was hired, with the active and intelligent cooperation of White, and have laid out a course, the nature of which can be seen on the diagram in the office of the Harmonie Club. This course will measure about 6400 yards, will take 15 acres of woodland and take full advantage of the vantages offered by the rolling ground, which we own."

   I wasn't and haven't, but the important point for including this quote from your post is that you use it as gospel in one situation yet tell us it is wrong in another when you just stated to Mark, "The Emmet course was over 6000 yards, not 5000 yards..."
   So one might ask, "Are YOU disregarding this excerpt from Steve's timeline?"
   Another example of what you have posted in an attempt to pronounce White as the driving architectural design force behind North Shore is when you try to compare the relative experience in 1915 between Raynor and White.
   For example, here's another question you asked which i didn't answer, but will do so now:
   "I'll ask you since no one else seems to be able to answer my question. What golf courses had Raynor designed by January, 1915?" George Bahto can answer that better than I. But let me ask you, WHY DOES THAT QUESTION MATTER? According to the records of the club that Steve has produced, Seth Raynor was hired on November 5th 1914 to advise on course design issues. On January 26 1915 the club "approved plans by Raynor for a new golf course." So whether this would be his 1st, 5th or 101st golf course design doesn't matter because the INDISPUTABLE FACT remains that RAYNOR was hired by North Shore for the express job of golf course architect. So again, in case you missed it, based on that set of facts, what possible relevance does the question "What golf courses had Raynor designed by January, 1915" have?
   Earlier in this thread you accused me of beuing close-minded. That isn't so. In an interesting twist to all of this, let me make you aware of something in case you weren't.
   "Are you trying to discover the truth or you trying to prove your theory, because if you were really trying to discover what happened I would think you'd approach this subject with a more open mind..."
I have kept quiet about several things because I didn't want to appear as if I was wanting credit for what is CLEARLY Steve's discovery, but I believe he will understand when you accuse me of being close minded on this that there is a need to show you that not only I wasn't but that I was probably the most OPEN-minded of all involved!
   Do you know HOW Steve discovered and then posted that the club minutes of the North Shore Country Club from 1913-198 were located in the New York public library in a special collection of the Harmonie Club? Its because I TOLD HIM! I found them and sent him the exact file number of the archives they would be found in. Do you know WHY Steve went to New York when he did to look them up? Its because he asked me if I was going to do so and I told him that I was ill and wouldn't be able to go until sometime after the new year. I asked him to come with me when I went and he decided that he wanted to go sooner. I am VERY glad that he did and made his discovery.
   When George Bahto early on decided to remove North Shore from his list of Raynor courses because of the way the debate was initially going, who was it that told him NOT top? It was ME! Why would I do that if I was close-minded and even George had become convinced at that time that Tilly was the architect? Simple answer; it was because I was given information that no one else had been given that called into question the "proof" that was cited by the North Shore club history as proof that Tilly designed the course.
   You see, the history was based on several things including an oral tradition that Tilly had been to the club and signed a contract in September 1915. I knew that was impossible because that ENTIRE month Tilly spent in FLORIDA working on Davista and several other Florida designs. The last week of the month he spent driving to San Antonio where he stayed until the beginning of November. During that time he designed Brackenridge park, Fort Sam Houston and the San Antonio CC. From there he went to Oklahoma and POINTS WEST.
   In other words, Tilly could NOT have been at North Shore when their oral history stated he was!
   I shared this information with both Steve and George and this also served as impetus for Steve to get to New York sooner rather than later.
   When Mark Hissey decided to check on Steve's information by going into the New York Historical Society himself and the Archivist there informed him that the files and archives that Steve had viewed DIDN'T EXIST, WHO was it that gave Mark the information, the exact file number and location that the now embarrassed archivist would find and that would enable Mark to confirm Steve's discovery? Why it was me.
   I'm sorry Tom, but it is YOU who is the close-minded one on this issue. There is nothing horrible about admitting when one is wrong. I've done it a number of times and will do so more in the future. Trust me, its cathartic. You're wrong on this one Tom.

To all, I apologize for the length of this, but felt I needed to give Tom a full and comprehensive answer to the question he asked.  
 
 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 09:25:29 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

I think this investigation on this website and elsewhere not only is to date one of the most successful and interesting this website has ever seen including some heretofore various and unique reasons and factors; with some of those reasons and factors it is still very much in the developing stage and will probably prove to be even more interesting and successful.

I am particularly thinking about how a private club can and probably should use this website as a resource, as well as how this website should proceed with a private club and how a private club should view what developes on here regarding the subject investigation.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 09:36:31 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Sweeney


Mike

Any idea the name of that thread?

Tried but was not able to find it.

I have to say that the collaboration around North Shore is changing my opinion of "most successful". I driven by the course dozen of times but have never played it, so that may be part of my hesitancy.

TEPaul

Chip:

I'm not much good at this kind of thing but if you put the following in it will get you into the middle of one of many of those old threads about the architectural history of Pine Valley and its investigation. There were a number of them back then. I think this one is from 2005. I believe this one was entitled "Re: Pine Valley's history book"

There were a number of them back then and most were a discussion/debate about the architectural creation of PV and primarily Crump's and Colt's part in it which was generally a contentious point.

It is also very interesting how Pine Valley and its membership looked at that issue at any point in time.



http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,12132.msg508626.html#msg508626

Mike Cirba

I particularly like this PV thread, simply because Joe's series of chronological articles from AW Tillinghast on Page 2 put a definitive end to a lot of speculation about who did what and make very clear that a lot of work, including initial routings, took place before Colt's visit in 1913.


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37570.0/


I also sort of like that at the time Crump and friends were initially routing and designing the golf course, and before Harry Colt, or CB Macdonald, or anyone else who came to visit and offer advice stepped onto the property, Crump and friends were known as the "Construction Committee".  ;D
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 01:55:17 PM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Mike:

That PV thread is a good one for this site because of those important and comprehensively explanatory newspaper articles included in the thread that Joe Bausch found and posted.

It is, however, very interesting to read some of these old threads on PV even if that one isn't all that old. It essentially shows the different perceptions regarding research depending on the particular venue. If you don't know what I mean by that I'd be glad to explain because it is a reality that happens frequently, perhaps constantly which most would never even think of.

I also notice a piece of information on one of my posts in that thread that has now been obsoleted and proven wrong, and even more interesting I doubt even Pine Valley has been aware of it for maybe seventy five years or more. Even though it does not have to do with the architecture of Pine Valley per se it is an important enough piece in the entire history of Pine Valley and it shows one just never knows what might pop up at any time if there are really good people out there walking the walk to look for material in other places than at even the subject ground or certainly not just on their computers. In this case, we have a new and very exciting one to me and happily we have now entered into a real collaborative mode and process.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 06:47:30 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Tom,

While in complete agreement that one must really search for evidence at the courses and clubs themselves, I'm nevertheless very thankful for the writings of one A.W. Tillinghast, who along with William Evans chronicled so much of early Philadelphia golf course history at a critical juncture, and I'm also thankful for one Joseph Bausch, who unearthed so much of it from the dustbin of history in recent years.

I can't imagine how distorted some of that history might be at this point if not for Tilinghast setting the record straight time and again.

Tom MacWood

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Since he cannot be involved in the actual discovery process I think we have finally found TEP's niche, he can determine which investigation has been most successful.

TEPaul

"Tom,

While in complete agreement that one must really search for evidence at the courses and clubs themselves, I'm nevertheless very thankful for the writings of one A.W. Tillinghast, who along with William Evans chronicled so much of early Philadelphia golf course history at a critical juncture, and I'm also thankful for one Joseph Bausch, who unearthed so much of it from the dustbin of history in recent years.

I can't imagine how distorted some of that history might be at this point if not for Tilinghast setting the record straight time and again."




MikeC:

That is all so true with Pine Valley and what Joe has found on it and what he has also found on so many other clubs and courses with newspaper articles that he has generously put on here.

That's the good news, I guess. Here's the bad news, I suppose, that I almsot hate to even have to mention on here since I've tried to do it so many times before on here in the past to no apparent benefit or avail.

I've think I've been in constant contact with Joe or he has been with me for some time now, probably since he began his laborious search and research in college libraries and museums and whatnot on anything and everything he has found via old newspaper articles involving Pine Valley and on so many other clubs and courses.

In all of that, there may be one, maybe perhaps none, I have never seen before.

But how could that be because I have never even attempted to make this kind of search and research as he has done? Because they are all in Pine Valley's archives!

Why is that though? I suppose the obvious answer is that Pine Valley, like so many other clubs like it, due to the club itself or some of its members, simply keep and reposited at the club anything and everything they were aware of ever written about them.

All that material has always been there at the club in their repository or archive but who has ever really looked at it or analyzed it all since it was first published and reposited in the club's archives? Good question indeed. Perhaps the club's three history writers looked at it or some of it but always with an eye to the detail or lack of it that they planned to write about for the club's history books. This would be John Arthur Brown, first, and then the 60 year member Warner Shelley, and finally member and hugely impressive golf historian Jim Finegan.

It has all been available for so many years but never just in one place but apparently two or many. I've seen it all and considered it and some years ago but what Joe Bausch did and did for this website is actually post it on this website. I've only talked about it and never actually posted a single copy of any of it on this site because I don't know how to do that-----even though that is something I hope to correct in the very near future.

By this I mean published material such as old newspaper and magazine reports. But there is much more of it that is not newspaper and magazine articles and much of that is previously never been published or made public and this presents a problem I am now in the process of trying to work out with the club and other clubs like it and today alone I have had numerous conversations with all kinds of people about how to best go about this for the interest and education of all those out there who care, while always considering the interests of the people who actually belong to and administer these clubs and subjects of ours that own that previously unpublished material that has never been made public before.

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