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Niall C

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #925 on: November 18, 2015, 11:15:27 AM »
Mike


I strongly suspect it is based on an Ordnance Survey map hence the reference to the high water mark, and the shoreline and railway detail. The total linear yardage is interesting in that it refers to the distance in miles which was the custom back then. Not sure I can recall a contemporary reference to the distance of the course given in yards (speaking from memory, could easily be wrong) which does suggest to me that it was made sometime after 1888.


Without knowing where the plan came from its hard to say for definite.


Niall

MCirba

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #926 on: November 18, 2015, 01:03:35 PM »
Niall,

I'll do some digging to see if I can't source it...thanks
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #927 on: November 18, 2015, 05:20:27 PM »
It appears possible from what I've been able to learn that the Troon map in question appeared in "The Golfing Annual 1888-89 which on page 62 carries a 'Plan of Troon Links'.

This Annual was evidently published in the spring of 1889.   Does anyone have a copy of the Annual who can verify that the map is one and the same one as what I produced here earlier?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #928 on: November 18, 2015, 10:30:12 PM »
Mike,
It's online - contents say there's an illustration of the course & clubhouse, but only the clubhouse appears.


https://archive.org/stream/golfingannual18802baucuoft#page/n81/mode/2up
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #929 on: November 19, 2015, 09:21:26 AM »
Jim,

Thanks for that link.   It's interesting that the drawing of Troon isn't the only one missing in the electronic copy of the book, but the drawings of Carnoustie, Littlestone, et.al. are missing as well.

My understanding is that this was produced through 1910.   I wonder if any of the others including the drawing(s)?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #930 on: November 19, 2015, 09:53:58 AM »
Mike,


The map is a fold out - probably not opened when creating the ebook.


 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #931 on: November 19, 2015, 11:02:26 AM »
Jim,

That's my thought as well.   Looking at the Troon Map dated 1888 it clearly has a fold in the middle. 

While not dis-positive, it certainly seems highly possible that the map in question does go back to that time period.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #932 on: November 19, 2015, 11:44:41 AM »
Jim and Mike,


The article does not show the detailed plan for Troon, however the writing does mention the plan on page 62:


"The links, as will be seen from the plan are 3 miles, 1 furlong, and 156 yards in length, the longest hole being 450 yards, and the shortest 197 yards."


Niall,


I think the biggest difference between the stick routings and detailed maps were the artists' drawing them.  There are stick routings for Royal St. George's from the 1920's that look like they were done by an 8th grader.  Then, there is the 1898 plan of Royal St. George's which looks like it was surveyed professionally.  I don't think it has as much to do with the time frame as it does with the person who was illustrating these plans.  If the clubs had the means to hire a professional surveyor, they were getting far more detail in their routing plans.


Bret




MCirba

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #933 on: November 19, 2015, 11:57:14 AM »
Bret,

Thanks for your feedback and observations.  I've only had a moment to scan the link to the Annual that Jim provided.

From a private email shared with me recently I learned that;

Minute of Troon Golf Club 7th January 1888 states that, in reply to a request from a person at Kintyre Golf Club for a copy of a course plan, "no such plan existed".

Minute of Troon Golf Club 16th March 1889 mentions that "an offer from the editor of The Golfing Annual be accepted, to inset in the forthcoming annual a full sized plan of the links".

Given the dimensions in the written portion of the Annual match those on the map, I believe it is highly likely that the map in question was indeed produced in 1889, or even 1888.

To my knowledge, this would therefore be the first map I've seen where something akin to "fairways", or "prepared areas through the green" are specifically indicated.   

Have you seen anything earlier in this regard?

Thanks again!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #934 on: November 19, 2015, 01:28:30 PM »
The club chose well - the lithographers:   Maclure, Macdonald & Co.[/size] were, in Victorian times, "Ornamental Printers to the Queen". [/color]
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Niall C

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #935 on: November 19, 2015, 01:55:28 PM »
Bret

It wasn't the stick routing plans I was referring to but plans showing fairways represented by a line round the borders.

Mike

I think you are right. If you look the plan is actually folder into sections which was how it was folded in the yearbook, or at least it is in the one I've seen. Clearly it didn't register with me before about the difference between fairways and rough, or indeed the course length in yards.

Niall

Bret Lawrence

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #936 on: November 19, 2015, 02:49:58 PM »
Mike, 


That map is a great find!  I have never seen a detailed map as early as that Troon Map, but I am curious what the Carnoustie, Littlestone and other maps missing from the Annual looked like?


Niall,


My bad!  I was slightly confused by your question of fairway lines. 


Bret




Sven Nilsen

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #937 on: November 19, 2015, 02:59:23 PM »
Palos Park (Bendelow) - Chicago Tribune April 27, 1919

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #938 on: November 19, 2015, 03:11:56 PM »
This American course is from a June 23, 1894 article.  Anyone know which course this is?



The article mentions several courses, but never refers to the map.  Here is the article,  in case I missed something.


http://news.hrvh.org/veridian/cgi-bin/senylrc?a=d&d=rocklandctytimes18940623.2.104&srpos=5&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN-Shinny------


Bret

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #939 on: November 19, 2015, 03:32:47 PM »
Bret,
That article appeared in at least one other newspaper at the same time. Just a guess - it seems like it's just an information piece.
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #940 on: November 19, 2015, 03:54:56 PM »

Rather elaborate woodcutting went into creating this drawing.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 03:56:38 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #941 on: November 19, 2015, 08:52:31 PM »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #942 on: November 20, 2015, 01:05:44 PM »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #943 on: November 24, 2015, 11:06:16 AM »
Des Moines G&CC - Des Moines Register Aug. 7, 1921


Plans by Warren Dickinson.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #944 on: November 24, 2015, 11:10:47 AM »
Jim,

Interesting how the original Jackson Park course played right through the "Tennis Lawn" and across the "Ball Field".   Do you think the other park visitors understood the cry of "Fore!"?  ;)

For years Philadelphia struggled in providing an area within Fairmount Park for a public golf course for much the same reason(s).   There was the fear that regular park visitors would be harmed by flying golf balls, or that golf would interrupt other more formalized games like baseball.

Then, a committee from the Golf Association of Philadelphia happened to note that the land around the relatively newly created park at Cobb's Creek might be ideal for the purpose, and since it was out at the edge of town and hardly used, voila!   

Next year will be 100 years of golf played at Cobb's Creek.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #945 on: November 24, 2015, 11:56:05 AM »
Mike,


The article mentions a "disagreeable interruption" to the tennis players who may have to listen to the word "Fore", but it doesn't think the ball players will experience any problems.


So does anyone know whose routing is shown in the first set of plans for CC? - Vardon's?


The map is interesting, can you post it here?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #946 on: November 24, 2015, 02:05:04 PM »
Jim,

There was a rumor that Vardon was going to design a public course for Philadelphia in Fairmount Park during his visit here in the spring of 1900.   

At around the same time a committee of amateurs of the Golf Association of Philadelphia selected a site in Fairmount Park near Belmont Mansion and laid out a 2,850 yard nine hole course and presented the map of same to Jesse T. Vogdes who was the Chief Engineer of the park.   While the matter was being determined within the city, this committee suggested that perhaps a professional could do a better job and suggested perhaps Tom Dunn, Willie's brother.

The men on the committee included, George Fowle, who did much design of the early Philly Country Club, Samuel Heebner, who did likewise for Philly Cricket, Rodman Griscom and C.S Farnum of Merion, and William P. Smith of Huntingdon Valley.   The Philadelphia Inquirer article from 1900 mentioning the men of this committee noted, "It was recognized that men experienced with the laying out and maintenance of club courses would be in an excellent position to have valuable ideas in regard to laying out a public course."  

We have their Committee report but don't have their map, unfortunately.   Their report notes; "We do not say that this is the best possible course that could be laid out upon the ground mentioned, but it would be a very good one.   Many changes that would improve the course might be made by a professional golfer devoting more study to this question on the ground."

This was all for naught as the course was never built due to some of the reasons I previously mentioned.

Cobb's Creek was not identified as a potential site for a public course until the early spring of 1913.   During that season, GAP appointed a Committee of Hugh Wilson, George Crump, Ab Smith, and William Slattery to locate a site for a public course within the parks system.   At first they again recommended a site near Belmont Mansion and the familiar objections were again raised.

At a meeting of the Fairmount Park Commission in June, 1913, the Committee had an alternative.   It was reported;

"The proposed golf course in Cobb's Creek Park is a tract of land in the northern end and is described by the Committee as an ideal site..."

It took another year or so for monies to be appropriated but while that was happening, GAP again named a committee to help the city design and build the golf course, with much of the design work happening in 1914, although the project wasn't officially announced as a "go" until the January 1915 GAP Annual Meeting, at which time the plans were made public, including the final approved routing.

The Committee named to design and build the course, again based on their individual prior experience in such matters at their own respective clubs included;

Hugh Wilson - Merion
George Crump and Dr. Simon Carr - Pine Valley
Ab Smith - Huntingdon Valley
Franklin Meehan - North Hills
George Klauder - Aronimink

The plan we located recently in city archives was identified as Plan #6 although it wasn't dated.   So far, we have only located this earlier one and the one that was approved that includes Jesse T. Vogdes signature citing approval dated in early 1915.

Here's Plan 6;

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Phil Young

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #947 on: November 24, 2015, 04:06:51 PM »
"Proposed Golf Course Old Elm Club" (Also see the thread "An Old Elm Conundrum..." for more info on this)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 11:58:49 AM by Phil Young »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #948 on: November 27, 2015, 01:39:01 PM »
Grand Hotel Course on Mackinac Island (Chicago Daily Tribune June 30, 1918) -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings
« Reply #949 on: November 27, 2015, 03:09:05 PM »
Bendelow's plan for the Hamilton County GC (lka Maketewah CC).

Cincinnati Enquirer Dec. 25, 1910 -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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