News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« on: March 10, 2023, 02:48:16 AM »
Posted by Alan Bastable:


https://twitter.com/alan_bastable/status/1633901924062773253?s=20
[/size]
[/size]Really neat to see Pete Dye price everything, and give a bit of a view into how he built courses. Anything stick out to you (besides the obvious price inflation)?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2023, 10:12:04 AM »
Thanks for posting that.  I am working on a budget for a new course in Florida this week, and the differences in the numbers are eye-watering.  [For example, the number for earthmoving is now $5.00 per cubic yard.]


It's worth noting that Mr. Dye did not include anything for irrigation or grassing in the figures given, presumably because he didn't supervise those aspects of the construction.  The irrigation budget might have been $400,000 back then.  [For my new course it is over $4m.]  Likewise, grassing costs weren't very much back in the day for sprigged bermudagrass, but you can spend a lot more on that now, too.


It's also worth noting that there is no "shaping" line item per se . . . all of the shapers and labor crew would have been paid out of the $198,000 for finish work and maybe the $50,000 rounding error on the earthmoving cost.  Of course, I only got paid $4 per hour at Long Cove the next year, and I don't think there was anybody on the crew other than P.B. or Bobby Weed that made as much as $10 per hour.


IIRC, Mr. Dye told me that his design fee for the TPC was $80,000.  I'd say the Tour got a really good deal.

Max Prokopy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2023, 10:59:08 AM »
I heard he took only $1 for the Wintonbury municipal project in Connecticut. 


The construction costs for Whistling Straits must have been something...

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2023, 12:52:44 PM »
Very cool, thanks for posting.


Tom Doak,


What are the chance they hit those budget estimates?  ;)
jeffmingay.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2023, 01:11:02 PM »

Tom Doak,

What are the chance they hit those budget estimates?  ;)


Yeah, I kind of doubt it.  But I do know that Commissioner Beman was pretty concerned about keeping it to budget, because they didn't have a lot of spare millions in the bank in those days.

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2023, 01:36:02 PM »
Tom Doak,


Can you shed any light on which tee to be built was 50% more than the rest of them?


I.E. 34 at $2000 each, 1 at $3000.


Thanks

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2023, 01:55:08 PM »

Can you shed any light on which tee to be built was 50% more than the rest of them?

I.E. 34 at $2000 each, 1 at $3000.



Well, it's 34 tees for 17 holes, so he must have been thinking one of the holes would only have one tee.  I would guess that was the 17th?


They certainly built more than two tees per hole when the course was actually built.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2023, 02:00:56 PM »
I know its still significantly less.

But $2000 in 1980 is almost $7500 in 2023. 

It at least partially explains the difference  ;)

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2023, 02:30:26 PM »
One thing that I would not have thought about was the 'Cubic yard of fill distributed with a 1,500 foot radius of the origination point'. I'm sure someone somewhere has been burned by not putting that in an estimate (although I appreciate this letter is likely just a ballpark).


Are there examples of not putting something in an estimate and it coming back to bite?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2023, 03:25:54 PM »
There are examples every day of the week, Tim. But this appears to be an estimate for the client, not a fixed price agreement in a design / build contract.


Iím sure Tom can explain the way Pete Dye worked.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2023, 03:42:15 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2023, 04:04:39 PM »
There are examples every day of the week, Tim. But this appears to be an estimate for the client, not a fixed price agreement in a design / build contract.


Iím sure Tom can explain the way Pete Dye worked.


Pete did not do design/build.  He organized the project for the client, but the client would have run the payroll for the operation, and borne the ultimate cost of construction, whatever it might be.  There weren't any guarantees.


You can hire a golf course contractor to build something for a fixed cost, but it seldom works out better.  For starters they will build in a large margin of error that is their profit if things go well.  Each change to the design will entail a "change order" that goes above the fixed cost.  And if things get really bad, they can drag their heels and ask for more money, "or we might not be able to finish this year," which of course is also going to cost you money.  I'm not saying I blame them -- it's a rough business, and their biggest liability is that they might not get paid in full for what they did do.  But they seldom if ever lose money on a project if they're paid in full.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2023, 05:12:03 PM »
One thing that I would not have thought about was the 'Cubic yard of fill distributed with a 1,500 foot radius of the origination point'. I'm sure someone somewhere has been burned by not putting that in an estimate (although I appreciate this letter is likely just a ballpark).


Are there examples of not putting something in an estimate and it coming back to bite?


1500 feet as the maximum haul expected by the grading company has been the standard since I got in the biz.  They usually quoted $0.10-0.25 for every 100 feet after, obviously more now.  If the gca provided good grading plans, they might do the takeoffs and include that charge spread out over the total mass ex, but would still have the two different unit prices in the bid for extras.


I have seen similar things on "per lineal foot of drain pipe" where they assume that it will be no more than 4 foot deep, which trenches pretty fast, whereas 6 feet or whatever may have required a backhoe and takes a lot longer.


Or sometimes, the contractor just bids market rate and "discovers" later on that he feels he is entitled to more for a long haul or deep pipe, but it is rare.


I have said this before, but my mentors often built courses the "Pete Dye way." In theory, you aren't paying the 10-15% profit margin of the general contractor and it should be cheaper.  However, we kept track of a few projects we did that way, compared to a pure lump sum bid from the "bigs" and most times, using a good golf contractor came out a bit better, i.e., efficiency more than made up for the profit margin in most cases.


When I started my own business, I realized quite quickly that the world wasn't any better off with me running dozers.  And, in reality, if we say that being able to hit a golf ball doesn't necessarily mean you can envision a good golf hole, it stands to reason (with me anyway) that the skill of running equipment doesn't necessarily mean you can envision a good golf hole.  How many people are really equally talented at two different job types?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Max Prokopy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2023, 10:27:15 PM »
How many people are really equally talented at two different job types?


That's a heck of a wise comment right there...

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2023, 04:06:15 AM »
Thanks for posting this link. Building something is one thing, keeping it going another.


So the next question is how much does it cost annually to maintain TPC Sawgrass?


atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2023, 11:01:22 AM »
Thanks for posting this link. Building something is one thing, keeping it going another.

So the next question is how much does it cost annually to maintain TPC Sawgrass?



I would like to know that myself.


It's hard for anyone else to remember now, but the original idea was for the TPC to be a low-maintenance golf course.  It was built in 1979 in the depths of a recession when interest rates were 13%, and the Tour really didn't have much income, and the Commissioner was worried about where they would generate the funds to maintain the course.  That's why Mr. Dye built his "waste areas" -- his idea was that they would be occasionally raked with a tractor and drag mat.


My favorite Pete Dye quote from the first tournament in 1982 was when Pete was asked why it was so much different than Augusta National and he responded that the course "was intended to be the dead opposite of Augusta.  On purpose."


Then the course opened to fanfare and controversy, and people wanted to play it, and most importantly the TOUR realized it was now their headquarters and it had to be maintained to a high standard or it would reflect badly on them, and the whole rationale for the course changed.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2023, 01:02:03 PM »
You would think now that more rustic and natural looking courses are in style that there would be some interest in bringing Sawgrass back to its original concept. However, I guess now that they blew up the 12th hole the idea of going backwards is probably off the table. The last renovation of the course seemed to take the course even further away from its original look.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2023, 01:06:50 PM »
You would think now that more rustic and natural looking courses are in style that there would be some interest in bringing Sawgrass back to its original concept. However, I guess now that they blew up the 12th hole the idea of going backwards is probably off the table. The last renovation of the course seemed to take the course even further away from its original look.


I was approached a year or two ago by someone who said they are actually thinking about trying to take the course back closer to its roots.  I suspect that some of the carnage this year is a step in that direction.  But I also know they've got major work scheduled shortly after the tournament.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2023, 03:41:43 PM »
But I also know they've got major work scheduled shortly after the tournament.


 :o


Liiiiike?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2023, 07:51:04 PM »

Thanks for posting this link. Building something is one thing, keeping it going another.

So the next question is how much does it cost annually to maintain TPC Sawgrass?



It's hard for anyone else to remember now, but the original idea was for the TPC to be a low-maintenance golf course.
My favorite Pete Dye quote from the first tournament in 1982 was when Pete was asked why it was so much different than Augusta National and he responded that the course "was intended to be the dead opposite of Augusta.  On purpose."



The irony is off the charts on this one, as The Players appears to be second only to Augusta in terms of the most manicured & pristine courses they play all year...




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2023, 07:51:19 PM »
But I also know they've got major work scheduled shortly after the tournament.

Liiiiike?


I don't know what they've decided on or who the architect is.  But I know one of the contractors we are working with is tied up there from April-June and can't start on our project until July.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2023, 07:36:11 AM »
the number for earthmoving is now $5.00 per cubic yard



seriously? You must be getting a discount as its been $8-12 on most of my projects recently, and as high as even $15.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Cost to Build TPC Sawgrass
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2023, 08:25:31 AM »
the number for earthmoving is now $5.00 per cubic yard



seriously? You must be getting a discount as its been $8-12 on most of my projects recently, and as high as even $15.


Jesus, you should move out of the NYC area!


We are probably getting a bulk discount for moving 500,000 cubic yards and all of it fairly close to where we dig it.  But I didn't realize $5.00 and change was a discount.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back