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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 ;D


As many know I have a great love for Pine Valley,  both as a place and an architectural masterpiece. Was lucky enough to sneak in the back gate as a caddie and eventually served a short stint as an assistant professional. Great experiences both!


As I await my first SS check ( ::) ) have previously identified hole #4 as my favorite of all from an architectural perspective. It has it all :a challenging tee shot both for distance and angle of attack , a beautiful setting going uphill and then down towards the clubhouse and a spectacular green that only gets better and better when the course is firm and fast. So much good stuff going on here!


Though well integrated , I have never liked the bunkers added by Fazio around year 2000 (?)  As a young caddie it was one of the great forecaddie spots , particularly if you where prescient enough to leave your stronger players an option as to what to hit off the tee. You see if the wind was right or the course was firm driver was often the wrong club. You could hit it too far if straight as it required cutting the corner a bit. It was so fun to give the "safe sign" to your player as they waited apprehensively at the bottom of the hill after hitting the tee shot.




The insertion of the bunkers at the top of the hill took away an angle for all but the longest hitters, and are a very penal reward for a well struck shot from the tee. They also take a great anticipatory result on a  course with very little quirk as to bounces. You generally can't fake it at PVGC  as the immortal words of Bernard Darwin attest to ;D


So if we are very lucky they will someday just vanish and all will be well with my favorite hole again!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 08:52:37 AM by archie_struthers »

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2022, 09:20:00 AM »
Archie, Iíve argued in the past that those bunkers are almost under the trees over there so they could never have been ďthe lineĒ anyway. I havenít been to PV in 10 or 12 years and much has changed with respect to trees there so cannot speak to the current arrangement.


I just canít imagine ever telling a player thatís a viable line unless the trees are gone. In which case, it would be a cool route for that middle distance player.  Maybe those trees grew a bunch from your early days looping to mineÖha!

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2022, 10:14:54 AM »
 8)


Don't know if JES was best player ever to caddie at Pine Valley , but it's either he. Adam Armagost or Tommy Elder.  Pretty good group there! ;D


So James for all of us that cant carry it 250 the removal of the bunkers opens up the tee shot by almost twenty five yards. We probably can't carry those "new" bunkers from the 6500 yard tees (back of front here) and the driver might be too much if it's not fitted into the slot between said bunkers and the ridge line in the fairway. I know we've both hit it thru straight and solid and that's no good for sure. 


I fondly remember watching guys wait for the safe sign from us as we fore caddied on top of  the hill. I also looked for lots of balls way right over the road by guys who tried to shorten the hole but sliced it too much. They limit options and actually make it easier for a really good player over the average guy or girl>  the new bunkers take that little bit of anticipation away as you take the aggressive line to the right. Just saying you know. 


Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2022, 10:38:23 AM »
2nd Place in the one caddy tournament I played!


Do you think the intent of those bunkers was to act like the big one by accommodating for average players hitting it a little longer over those 80 years?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2022, 10:57:49 AM »
 8)


no

Jim Sullivan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2022, 11:41:27 AM »
I could go either way with them. My inclination is to not fix something thatís not broken.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2022, 12:24:43 PM »
Does anyone have pictures?
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2022, 02:35:35 PM »
Iíve only played PV 4 times. But those bunkers feel like they belong there ó so much so I was unaware of their recent history.


So no do not remove them.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2022, 01:19:06 PM »
 8)




Mike the bunkers were absolutely well done , they look as if they had been there. That is a very good thing for an architect. What you can't see or wouldn't know if you haven't played there for a long time is that the line of attack they removed was special!


Google earth will show it < I just can't post it now
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 03:12:33 PM by archie_struthers »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2022, 09:04:14 AM »
The fairway is still very wide, but they were not needed. Four and thirteen are the most difficult par fours on the course for me. If I am one over on those two holes I'm ok. If I am only one over I am thrilled. I've never been even par on them.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2022, 06:34:55 PM »
Does anyone have pictures?


I think this is what Archie is discussing. (i) from the  tee, (ii) short of cross bunkers (this photo from Links Gems Twitter feed), (iii) from where I hit from within the right-most of the crossing bunkers



Pine Valley #4 from tee 166
by SA



Pine Valley # 4 short of the cross bunkers
by Links Gems



Pine Valley #4 from inside crossing bunker
by SA

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2022, 07:04:07 PM »
 ;D


Thanks so much Stewart. You can't see the offending bunkers but in the first picture from the tee you could aim right down the right hand corner and just rip a three wood or driver depending on tee placement and wind. It was such a fun shot and many first timers thought you were stone dead when you took that line. In reality if you hit it hard and a little left it was no good as the fairway while huge was canted so it bounced forward into trouble at times.


The new bunkers tightened it up dramatically and are on top of the large shelf that looks down to the green on the right.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 09:39:15 AM by archie_struthers »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should they remove "new" bunkers on right side of 4 fairway PVGC
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2022, 10:33:35 AM »
Here is an overhead from Google Earth. Hope it helps.

Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

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