[Paul Richards]

Jim:

Who's Joe Smidlap?  Haven't seen his name on GCA before.

I am also wondering why you quit the Ross Society?

[TEPaul]

Something seems illogical about this whole discussion.

It really isn't just a question of whether the greens on Pinehurst #2 play great today. If they do, they just do! If they aren't over the top with basically more contour on them than Ross had and significantly higher green speeds, so be it. If it's a high intensitiy level today that isn't over the top, that's fine.

What I can't understand though is if Ross's Pinehurst #2 greens back in 1948 were considered so unusual since they were crowned and apparently intense to play back then how in the world can they have basically increased in elevation fall by another 2' probably gotten twice as fast as back then and still be OK? I'm not saying they aren't today but how could that be?

I can understand that they've been expanded back to their original sizes and that alone could compensate to some degree but if they are OK today but were intense back then why are courses today feeling the need to soften some of these older contours in the constant quest for more speed, if Pinehurst #2 is OK and doesn't have to do it?

I would think that even if Pinehurst #2's green contours had at least remained the same with the increase in speed they would be near or over the edge and almost be a candidate for softening too. But they have actually had their contours or slope increased with a enormous increase in speed too.

So something isn't making sense here. Either the slope and contour in Ross's day must have been fairly mundane and the intensity level too or else there just is not a 2' elevation increase on those greens.

Again did Rees Jones at least redesign or restore those greens back to the contours and elevations that at least Ross had on them, because something is very illogical about all this?

[MCirba]

I think Tom Paul is onto something here...

It has been mentioned that due to topdressing, thermal dynamic shifts of the earth, astrological signs, the Kennedy/Lincoln assasination similarities, and the sightings of Elvis, that somehow the greens at #2 are now seriously more "plateaued" than Donald Ross designed them; in fact, they are seriously more elevated than any other course on the planet Earth that was built before 1940!!!

My sense of logic creates cynicism.  I'm reacting the same way I did when I heard the contention that the new bunkers at Merion will somehow evolve into the old White Faces again, just given the element of time....simply put, it's doesn't make sense.

If the latter were true, every course on the planet built before 1940 would have beautifully evolved, original looking, finely weathered Merion style bunkers.  

If the former were true, topdressing practices would have assured that every course built before 1940 would have domed greens.

It doesn't make sense, and I would like to hear someone explain their contention that Ross's original greens were several feet lower.  

[Hart Huffines]

I once mentioned to Ran that he should read the old
write ups Pinehurst had done when #2 was changed
from sand to grass greens.  They display one in the
men's locker room upstairs.

Without a copy before me I remember that the pictures
of hole #6 show a seemingly lower green surface without
the abrupt rise to the false front there now.  Other
greens probably look lower as well.

These greens have been redone at least 3 times since
1936 and imho the latest greens were built up higher
to make it more of a championship test.  There is
an interesting article in todays News and Observer which
suggests that #2 and now Augusta are the standard
for today's championship caliber golfer.

[TEPaul]

What this is beginning to mean to me is that Pinehurst #2's greens in Ross's day as to the intensity level of both approaching, recovering, chipping and putting was in an absolutely different dimension compared to what they are today, or vice versa!

I think I always heard that even back then they were intense but this almost proves to me that that was impossible. Or maybe what they thought of back then as "intensity" in approaching, recovering, chipping and putting would feel to us like no more than about 5 on the stimpmeter--and Pinehurst #2's greens had less elevation fall too!

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