[JohnV]

Geez Dave, can we extrapolate that your never ending quest could only exist as a theory of a rule enforcement, in a world void of practical reality?  Is that the condition you need to give up this ghost?  

I'd like you to answer the question without regard to "enforcement" or "practical reality", if that's alright.

Assuming a perfect world, completely separating yourself from all the enforcement and practical realities...in other words, speaking only as yourself, the golfer and golf-lover, and not as a rules guy tasked with dealing with such mechanics (or a defender of the same)...would you, as King of All Things Golf, allow or disallow the practice?  Same question to John...

Read the first paragraph of my last answer:

But, since you ask, theoretically, I have no problem with lines on the ball.  Theoretically, I don't have a problem with putting a water bottle on the opposite side of the hole to aim at, but the rules don't allow that.  In the end, it all comes down to the stroke, the vagaries of the ground the ball is rolling over on the green or the winds as it flies through the air.  Don’t mess with those and I really don’t care.

[JohnV]

John, on a scale of 1-10, how happy are you to be living in the Monterey area?  

I attended a Byron Nelson a few years ago in Dallas at the TPC Las Collinas course.  There is a long par 4 there with a lateral hazard all down the right side.  One of the players knocked a tee shot way out to the right into the hazard.  It took the players. all 3 of them, and the PGA rules guy at least 20 minutes to figure out where the culprit should drop.  He was arguing the ball crossed the margin of the hazard at least 30 yards farther than the other guys thought it did, and they were all adamant!

How do you handle that situation?  It was pretty ugly!

8.5 on the 1-10.  The only complaint is that I like living in a city about the size of Portland or Pittsburgh that has a better arts scene, more music and major league sports (or even minor league for that matter.)  SF is too far to drive for a baseball game.

In the end, it really comes down to listening to all the points of view.  In a case like that, if the other players were very adamant, I'd probably tell the player that with no better evidence, we should go with the location that is furthest from the hole.  I remember Peter Pittock once told a player his ball might have crossed 30 yards further up than where he was going to drop ( there was a little peninsula it might have crossed.  The player said he couldn't be sure it did so he would drop back there.  Those are the guys you love.  Peter, do you remember that?

[JohnV]

John,

Did featheries have cheater lines?

No reason they couldn't.

[JohnV]

  John,

  What rule/rules would you like to see amended?
There are a couple that need some work.  14-3 which deals with Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equpment is getting really messy due to all things like iPods, training aids and gloves that need rulings.  It is tough to administer at times.

12-1 - The fact that if you accidentally move your ball while moving loose impediments or sand in a hazard, but not through the green bugs. me a lot.  Also, the fact that many people don't understand the point where you switch from searching to identifying the ball in 12-2  needs clarification.  The Flagstick rules are way to complicated for what it is.  I woudln't mind seeing it all go away.

  What rule/rules would you like added?
Can't think of anything I'd really like added.

  How do you pronounce that french desert at Fandango?
Don't know,  I've only been there once.  There are other restaurants in Pacific Grove I like better.

  Do the squirles at Carmel bite?
I don't know that either, but I've heard the Mountain Lions in PG do.  Nothing odder than going along a trail on the beach and being warned about Mountain Lions.

  Thanks.......Anthony

[JohnV]

John,
There were some early questions left unanswered, and I'd like to get this off thee cheater line (geesh, can't they post on their own thread rather than hi-jack this one)

Your job at NCGA is starting up and adminstering a junior tournament program. How is that going?

Peter, sorry I must have missed that.
The NCGA Junior Tour is going great.  We started in 2008 with 8 tournaments, went to 12 last year and have 16 this year.  We sold out 95% of the possible spots last year and had waiting lists for all but 3 tournaments.  Some events have sold out in 5 minutes.  We definitely put a stress on our registration software vendor's servers.  The kids and parents have been incredibly positive about the tour.  We are keeping the price low ($75 for 36-holes on weekends).  Then add in the professionalism from all our tournament volunteers and it is as good as it gets.  Other tours in CA charge $190 or more for similar events with only one or two people who've ever run tournaments.  Wonder why we get 112 players and they get 15-35?

This year I've got my assistant trained so I don't have to work all those events.  Last year I spent 52 weekend days on the road between March and November and only got 3 days off to make up for it.  This year looks a lot better so hopefully I'll get to play a little more.

[JohnV]

John,  

Do you have any good dirt on the 'other' John, the brother of The Most Beloved Figure in Golf?

Do you get to play much?

Love your website/blog.

Michael,  Thanks.  No real dirt on John.  He is a great guy who is always helpful when I get a real tough question.

I played 24 rounds last year.  Not nearly enough.  I hope to play a little more this year.

[Pete_Pittock]

I remember the incident, but not the player.

[JohnV]

I remember the incident, but not the player.

Hints:
His father was (is?) a member of the US Junior Committee.
He won a tournament in Asia that was co-sanctioned with the European Tour and played there for a couple of years.

Remember now?

[Pete_Pittock]

Gerry is a class act. Here is an update on Observer Bob. Scroll down to page 4
http://www.oga.org/docs/PNGA/GO_SEPT09.pdf

[JohnV]

Nice article on Bob.  He is a classy guy and so is his son.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

How do you feel about implementing some type of divot rule?  Couldn't it be considered ground under repair?

If players are allowed to fix ball marks on the green that impact thier next stroke, wouldn't being able to take relief from a divot also be the right thing to do using the same logical line of reasoning?

[JohnV]

John,

How do you feel about implementing some type of divot rule?  Couldn't it be considered ground under repair?

totally against it.  Just play lift clean and cheat if you don't want to deal with the adversities you find on the course.

If players are allowed to fix ball marks on the green that impact thier next stroke, wouldn't being able to take relief from a divot also be the right thing to do using the same logical line of reasoning?

not in my mind.  The putting green is different because we roll the ball along it.  We get lots of special privileges on the putting green.  We can mark our ball, clean it, remove sand etc.  We don't get penalized if we accidentally move our ball while moving loose impediments.  If we say, well, we get to do this on the putting green so why not on the rest of the course, we'll have people wanting to do all of those things as well.

Besides, even though Shivas won't want me to say this, t is basically unenforceable.  When is a divot sufficiently healed that we don't get relief.

[JohnV]

We have no power at our office at Poppy Hills today so we are all going to one guys house to play poker.  So, I won't be online for a few hours.  Sorry for the delay in any responses.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

How do you feel about implementing some type of divot rule?  Couldn't it be considered ground under repair?

totally against it.  Just play lift clean and cheat if you don't want to deal with the adversities you find on the course.

If players are allowed to fix ball marks on the green that impact thier next stroke, wouldn't being able to take relief from a divot also be the right thing to do using the same logical line of reasoning?

not in my mind.  The putting green is different because we roll the ball along it.  We get lots of special privileges on the putting green.  We can mark our ball, clean it, remove sand etc.  We don't get penalized if we accidentally move our ball while moving loose impediments.  If we say, well, we get to do this on the putting green so why not on the rest of the course, we'll have people wanting to do all of those things as well.

Besides, even though Shivas won't want me to say this, t is basically unenforceable.  When is a divot sufficiently healed that we don't get relief.

John,

Thats all fine and good.  But based on that logic, why don't we "always" play it where it lies.

Why should we get relief from casual water in the fairway?
Why should we get relief cause the grounds keeper did a burnout with his maintaince cart and peeled up some sod?
Why do we get relief if an animal dug a hole in the ground?
Why do we get relief if a tree has a stake holding it in place?
Why do we get relief if the ball comes to rest on a cart path?

I can't argue your view in wanting to "play it as it lies", but why the inconsitenty in terms of the ever-growing list of exceptions that we say is OK? In the end, I'm completly baffled as to why one wouldn't get relief from a divot, but yet get relief from all these other things.  Why can't we have a "special privelege" to remove the ball from a divot?

P.S.  Players do make judgement calls all the time on greens as to what is and isn't a "ball mark" and if they can repair it...I see this all the time on TV.  It seems they could use this same discernment for what a "divot" is.

Just sayin'   

[JohnV]

Kalen,

As I said, in my answer to Shivas,  it is all a judgment by the Rules of Golf Committee.  Convince them and you're golden.   I don't think you will and if I'm ever on it, I'll be a vote against that change.

Damage (casual water, cart damage, burrowing animal holes) frequently result in the player being unable to get a club on the ball and are not part of the game as it was intended to be played.  Other things are fixed man made objects (cart path) or items they want to protect (trees with stakes, sod farms).

I personally have never seen a divot where I couldn't get a club on the ball.

None of the exceptions you listed have been added recently.  Casual Water was added in 1899, Ground Under Repair 1902, Burrowng Animal Holes 1812, Man made objects 1744, staked Trees (I'm not sure), but the stake was always a man-made object.

In my opinion, most PGA Professionals and superintendents mark way to much ground under repair.  Come to a NCGA or USGA event and you won't see very much and almost none outside the fairways unless it is something like a significant rut made by a vehicle.

[George Pazin]

One of the more entertaining things you might experience when paired up with John and two strangers is the look of semi-panic when the strangers find out he is a rules official. Almost every time John and I teed it up - which wasn't nearly enough, but highly enjoyable each time - the other golfers would invariably get around to "What do you do?" Surprisingly, they were less concerned with my t shirt business than John's occupation.

John would always reassure them that he didn't care what they did, as long as he wasn't playing them in a match...

They would usually spend the rest of the round asking rules questions, much like most of us on here. The downside of that is that John has a pretty wide breadth of experience on golf courses around the country and in the UK, and I think many would do well to examine that side of John as well.

John, as an opener, can you share with everyone the development of your thoughts on Oakmont? I seem to recall you initially felt it was too hard to enjoy on a regular basis, but repeat play changed that opinion - perhaps you could expand on that.

[Garland Bayley]

John,

Eugene CC before or after RTJ. Any thoughts?

[Jason Topp]

One current practice I do not like is when caddies stand behind a player to ensure that the player is lined up properly.  The caddie then steps away before the player hits a shot. 

While I understand the practical issues you raise regarding the "cheater line" I see little practical difficulty in outlawing this practice.  Has it ever been discussed?  Do you have a view on making such a practice illegal? 

[JohnV]

John, as an opener, can you share with everyone the development of your thoughts on Oakmont? I seem to recall you initially felt it was too hard to enjoy on a regular basis, but repeat play changed that opinion - perhaps you could expand on that.

The first time I played Oakmont, I was overwhelmed.  It was so freaking hard that I thought it wouldn't be fun to play every day.  But, as I got back there a few more times, I started to see that the challenge was great, but the feeling of exhilaration when you did something like landing your ball 20 yards short of #1 and see it roll down to the hole (or usually just beyond it) was great.  I also loved the fact that you could be forced to play shots that tested your entire game, but that you wouldn't be pulling another ball out of your pocket when you failed.  You would just be faced with another tough shot.

Also, after walking with some of the greatest players in the world for four days and seeing that the course challenged them in the same way I became convinced that it was at the top of the list of great courses I've seen.  For the record, I walked with the following groups:
Thursday - Cabrera, Goosen, Donald
Friday -  Stroud, Fickart, Dufner
Saturday - Westwood, Kim
Sunday - Janzen, Dougherty

Cabrera was amazing.  He bombed it so far past Goosen who isn't short.

Westwood was the most fun.  On the third hole, the hole was on the front right and a putt from the back of the green that was hit a little hard could go past the hole and 50 yards or more down the hill.  He had a 30-footer from the back that he left 4 feet short (no surprise there).  He really was grinding on that putt and made it.  When we got to the fourth tee, he turned to me and said, "I'm sending my psychiatric bills to the USGA."

[JohnV]

John,

Eugene CC before or after RTJ. Any thoughts?

I always enjoyed Eugene as it is today.   I've played it a couple of times,  refereed the finals of the Oregon Amateur there as well as working the US Mid-Am and think it holds up well.  I didn't really spend a lot of time studying it the other way around, but I can see that some hole might be interesting in the other direction.

[JohnV]

One current practice I do not like is when caddies stand behind a player to ensure that the player is lined up properly.  The caddie then steps away before the player hits a shot. 

While I understand the practical issues you raise regarding the "cheater line" I see little practical difficulty in outlawing this practice.  Has it ever been discussed?  Do you have a view on making such a practice illegal? 

Jason,
I'm not a fan of the practice, I think it looks bad and it especially annoying at the US Women's Amateur where you have a bunch of players who've never had caddies before suddenly needing to be lined up by their caddy who probably knows nothing about their game. 

I'm better with it now that they make them step away before the shot, but I still don't like it.  But, the rules have always allowed the player to get advice from his caddie and this is considered to be following that principle.  I doubt that there will be any further change, but you never know.

[JohnV]

Since George mentioned that I've seen a few courses, I thought I'd put up these stats:

I 've played 454 courses, Officiated at 186, did USGA Course Ratings at 140 and attended important tournaments at 22.  Since there are many duplicates on that list, it makes 562 unique courses.

It is actually one more than that, but there is a course in Georgia that I played in 1986 that I can't remember the name of.  It was southeast of Atlanta, just south of the airport.  Lots of hills, red-clay and trees.  Probably built in the 70s or early 80s.  I'd ask for hints, but I doubt the name would ring any bells at this point.

[Garland Bayley]

Did you take any pictures of that Georgia course you can show us to help us identify it for you?

[JohnV]

Did you take any pictures of that Georgia course you can show us to help us identify it for you?

Back then, I was lucky to remember my socks let alone my camera.  The only thing I remember about that weekend was being at Atlanta airport in Sunday afternoon sitting in the bar listening to a bunch of guys crying about the fact that they had to get back to work and had left the golf toon-a-mint they were at in Augusta early.  I was just enjoying watching the old man on TV.

[Garland Bayley]

Did you take any pictures of that Georgia course you can show us to help us identify it for you?

Back then, I was lucky to remember my socks let alone my camera.  The only thing I remember about that weekend was being at Atlanta airport in Sunday afternoon sitting in the bar listening to a bunch of guys crying about the fact that they had to get back to work and had left the golf toon-a-mint they were at in Augusta early.  I was just enjoying watching the old man on TV.

That must have been golden!

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