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JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2010, 10:02:30 AM »
I'm reasonably familiar with all the history you mentioned.

Most of what you listed can, arguably, fit within the Tufts principle.

But how do you resolve this:
The only thing that is new at all is that in 1960, unlimited lifting on the putting green was added to the rules.

with this:

"However it is obvious that there will be circumstances when the player will be unable fairly to complete the play of the hole unless he is granted some exceptions to the principle of advancing the ball without touching it."

Is there any sort of argument for unlimited touching of the ball fitting within the exception Tufts mentions?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Never let them see you sweat. Especially in HD, it looks like a mudslide.
 --Stephen Colbert


First, Tufts wrote the book in 1961 so he was well aware of lifting on the putting green when he did.  It is not "unlimited touching".  It is limited to the putting green and it requires the location to be marked and replaced in the same place.

The abolition of the stymie in match play in 1952 probably led to the eventual permission to lift the ball.  As Kenneth Chapman says in his book "The Rules of the Game", regarding two experiments from 1968 allowing cleaning only before the first putt and requiring continuous putting, the "Varying conditions during stroke-play competitions gave unfair advantage to players lucky with the weather, and continuous putting was in direct conflict with the traditional order of play."  I'm sure that the first of these reasons was also partially behind the choice to allow lifting and cleaning on the putting green initially.

These two experiments were only in the US, the R&A didn't go along.  They were so impractical and unpopular that they were taken out in 1970.  The ONLY time the rules were changed between the four-year update interval that was established when the USGA and R&A rules were combined in 1952.

But enough about all this.  If you don't want to lift your ball, the only time you are required to do so is an ESA or GUR from which relief is mandatory.  Play on Mr. King.

JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2010, 10:16:05 AM »

Are you familiar with this piece of rules history ?
Can you tell us what happened with the 1946 new rule regarding grooves ?
What were the prior "rules which have been rather loosely regarded " ?
Did the new rule apply to all clubs, or just "approaching irons" ?
Did the rule remain on the books and evolve into its current state, or was it forgotten until recent times


The history of club rules is not covered very well in the various books I've got so I'm not that familiar.  Chapman says that equipment rules are "outside the scope" of his book.

I have a book on the Rules written by Francis Ouimet from 1949 just quotes the Appendix where you find "Club faces ... shall not bear any lines, dots or other markings with sharp or rough edges made for the obvious purpose of putting a cut on the ball."  It then says that specifications have been issued to manufacturers.

From 1940, the USGA must have decided things were getting out of hand.  They also were investigating if the balls went to far and "might have a magnetic core".  The ball rule on Initial Velocity came up shortly after that.

George Pazin

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Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2010, 01:44:23 PM »
Phillip,  
To answer your question, I started to type up the long story of how I got into the rules. As I did that, I realized that the answer was quite simple.  I can say that I enjoyed learning about the rules when I first went to class in 1992 and I thought it was interesting and cool to be out on the course making rulings.  I thought the be-all and end-all would be to be on the PGA Tour as a rules official and all I had to do was learn the rules to make it happen.

It wasn't until 1994 when I was a guest official at the US Mid-Am in Eugene and a guy named Bob Hooper took me under his wing that I got the passion.  Bob spent the day riding with me and asking me questions.  They got tougher as the day went on.  When I couldn't answer a question he would just say, "Look it up and tell me what you find."  I'd do that.  Sometimes the answers weren't there so I had to figure out it.  I'd talk it over with him and eventually work my way to the answer.

Now, I'd always loved problem solving. In a math class in high school, our teacher would hand out a problem each week that we were to solve by the next week.  Usually I'd spend the rest of the hour or day working on it.  I loved the challenge.  The questions usually showed some interesting mathmatical concept.  At the end of the year, she told me I was the only kid she'd had in 10 years who could be a math major.  I enjoyed programming for years for the same reason.

The situations Bob gave me and I was seeing on the course frequently involved problem solving.  That day with Bob really got me going.  I went from being someone who was thinking the best way to learn the rules was to memorize them to knowing that only by understanding the history, the reasons and the similar situations in the book could bring them to life.

In 1997, I got on the Mid-Am Committee and Bob would continue to hit me with questions.  He finally quit in 2000.  Either he ran out of questions or he figured I'd gotten good enough.  He was really the first mentor I had in my life and is still a great friend today.

Thanks for sharing this story, it embodies everything I think we are all looking for in these GTK threads.

Btw, as a math major myself, I can relate to your thirst for problem solving. One of the faculty members in the math department at college said, if you aren't the type to wander across campus fixated on solving some problem, you aren't meant to pursue a career in math. Which is probably why he's a math professor and I'm printing t shirts. :)

What's the toughest type of course to officiate? Water-hazard strewn? Desert?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #103 on: January 22, 2010, 04:39:05 PM »
George,
A properly marked course usually isn't too difficult to officiate on.  The biggest issues come when you have trees or long grass near water hazards and you have to deal with whether a ball is known or virtually certain to be in the hazard.

Courses with lots of water are usually fun to work because you can be kept pretty busy.  I remember one day on the Futures Tour where I had 75 rulings on two holes that had water on them.  Much better than the course the very next week when I went an entire day with no rulings on the 9 holes I was responsible for.  I spent the day timing how long it took groups play a particular hole.  I found that a group of three completed play around the putting green the fastest if one player missed the green.  While she was chipping the others could take care of all their business of marking, lifting and cleaning and be ready to read their putts.

The biggest problems come where you have holes that play fast and others where play backs up.  So, long par 3s and short par 4s and 5s can cause problems.  Especially if they are have trouble around them and are interspersed with open par 4s with little or no trouble.

Then what happens is that groups fly through a couple of holes and all stack up at the harder holes.  It is hard to keep a flow that leads to a good pace of play on courses like this.

I've been surprised at the lack of questions about pace of play in this thread.  It really is what we spend most of our time dealing with.  I can say that it is also the least enjoyable part of the job.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #104 on: January 22, 2010, 04:51:12 PM »

I've been surprised at the lack of questions about pace of play in this thread.  It really is what we spend most of our time dealing with.  I can say that it is also the least enjoyable part of the job.

Perhaps its because we've all had the will to live sucked out of us by the lack of enforcement by the PGATour in doing anything substantial about this.

Pro Golf is an absolute grind, and if there aren't any big names playing, i'm not watching as a general rule...  pre-shot routines are literally killing the game as we see it on TV.

JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #105 on: January 22, 2010, 05:58:00 PM »
Pro Golf is an absolute grind, and if there aren't any big names playing, i'm not watching as a general rule...  pre-shot routines are literally killing the game as we see it on TV.

Part of that is because directors keep showing us every move that Tiger or Phil make.  If they covered some other players we wouldn't be watching them all the time and things would move faster.

I just wrote a new post on my blog about the problem we see all the time that we call creep: http://freedrop.wordpress.com/2010/01/22/creep/

It also explains why there is not incentive for players to play faster when there is a two-tee start like we see on Thursdays and Fridays.

JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #106 on: January 22, 2010, 07:15:06 PM »
Someone asked about cheaters earlier in this thread.  I had meant to tell this story, but I’d forgotten until now.  This guy is the most blatant cheater I’ve ever heard of.

At a qualifier for the 2007 US Mid-Amateur, a player, we’ll call him Joe XtXson from a town in the Sacramento Valley, returned his card with a score that would have qualified to go to the championship in Milwaukee.   The NCGA was posting the scores on the internet.  About 30 minutes later, before all the play was complete, our official in charge got a phone call in the pro shop.  On the line was a player who said he had been the marker for Joe and that Joe had shot a score 5 shots higher than shown.  The card was retrieved and it was noticed that there were erasures on the card.  Joe was immediately disqualified and was sent a letter telling him he wasn’t allowed to enter any NCGA or USGA tournaments.

Move forward to 2008.  A US Amateur qualifier is being played in the valley.  When we receive the list of entrants there is a Joey XtXsen listed amongst the entrants from the same town.  One of staff is a little suspicious so he checks a few things.  Joey is from a different club than Joe, has a different GHIN number, has a different address and with slight difference in the last names he figures that he is a different person.  The last name was a common enough Scandinavian name that it was very possible for it to be two people.

This qualifier was being run by Roger Val, our Director of Rules and Competitions.  Because we had so many qualifiers going that day, Roger wasn’t able to take a laptop and do live scoring.  Therefore, the scores weren’t posted on the Internet that day.  At the end of the day Joey XtXsen was the medalist and Roger gave him the medal.

The next day, Roger was back at the office going through the cards.  As he looked at Joey’s second round card, he noticed a few erasures.  He also noticed that Joey had made a hole-in-one.  He was surprised that there was no big deal made about that.  He was very suspicious and called in the staff member who had first checked things.  He explained how it didn’t seem like it was the same person.

Roger called the Joey’s marker.   As they went through the card, the player said that the scores were wrong on a number of holes.  When asked about the ace, he said, “I was suspicious about that.  The green is elevated and I thought his shot might have gone over the green.  My shot was down the hill where I couldn’t see the green’s surface.  While I was getting ready to hit my shot, Joey went up and yelled that his ball was in the hole.  I had no way to dispute this, but I wasn’t totally sure about it either.”  Roger called Joey who denied all the accusations, including being the same person as the previous year.

The fun thing is that the marker is a police officer in Joey’s home town.  He starts checking things out and finds the address he used is for a grocery store.  Nobody at the club where he is a member really knows him.  Not to unusual for a public course, but still a player that good would get known quickly.

Roger called the USGA to have them take him out of the championship.  Meanwhile, Joey sent an e-mail to the USGA saying he would have to withdraw due to the illness of his father.  Then a day or two later he sent another e-mail saying that there had been a change for the better and he would be able to play.  But, this was his real fatal mistake.  He used the same e-mail address that he had used the previous year to register as Joe XtXson.

The USGA quickly sent him a letter telling him he was indefinitely suspended and sent a letter to us that we could take to the US Mid-Amateur qualifier that Joey was entered in.  Needless to say, he didn’t show up.

On to 2009.  One of our staff gets a phone call from Joseph XdXson saying he has entered the California Amateur qualifier but needs to withdraw and would like his entry just moved to the NCGA Public Links championship.  She is immediately suspicious.  We pull the GHIN number he registered with.

I type it into GHIN without a club number and am told that he is a member of a club in Oregon and a club in San Luis Obispo which is about as far as you can get from the original town and still be in the NCGA.  The address associated with the club in Oregon is in Boise, ID.  The address with the club in SLO is in Palm Springs.  Additionally, he became a member in November of 2008 and had posted 20 scores in a two week period right after that, but hadn’t posted anymore since.  A few of the scores posted were listed as being played at Poppy Hills.  So, I called our pro shop and they had no record of his playing.

I went to Google maps and switched to street view.  The address in Boise is an open field.  The one in Palm Springs is in a gated community so street view doesn’t have a shot, but it appears to be a park.

On top of all that, the dummy still hadn’t gotten a new e-mail address.

We put the word out on him to the SCGA and the OGA.  The SCGA catches him trying to enter some tournaments down there.
After another round of letters, it appears he has finally given up or gotten a lot smarter.

So, how was he doing this?  It turns out that in both events, one of the players in the group had withdrawn so it was a group of 2.  When they finished the round, rather than going to the scoring area, he suggested the check the cards at the 18th green.  After they took care of the cards, he found some reason not to go straight to scoring, but waited until the other player had turned in his card and left the area.  He then made his changes to the card.  He then waited until things were busy and walked up and handed in his card.

Roger is still pissed that he gave him the medal.

Mike Benham

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Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #107 on: January 22, 2010, 07:52:41 PM »

Wow !!! ... Amongst all of that, it took some huge huevos to claim the hole in one ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Will MacEwen

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #108 on: January 22, 2010, 08:34:47 PM »
Thanks John - I was the one who asked the question and that is a great story.

I would wager that 49% of you wanted to post the guy's name.

JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #109 on: January 22, 2010, 09:29:52 PM »
Thanks John - I was the one who asked the question and that is a great story.

I would wager that 49% of you wanted to post the guy's name.

More than that, but I'm not sure which name is correct. :o

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2010, 03:54:25 AM »
Yeah, in that US Mid-Am qualifier at Contra Costa he was listed as Joey Petersen. I don't see any reason to protect his name; when you enter a tournament, you understand that your performance will be made public. His performance was as a cheater. In retrospect, it seems like the guy must have some mental issues. Nonetheless, should I ever run into him anywhere, I would at least have the urge to punch him in the face.

Interestingly, he had it planned out beforehand. I chatted with him on the putting green a couple of days before the qualifier and he told me he thought it would take 68 to get in. Two days later, he erased his way to a 68. Stunner.

JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2010, 12:33:03 PM »
Matt,

You are correct that it was Joey/Joe/Joseph Peterson/Petersen/Pedersen.

I hadn't put his name in there because I really didn't think it was relevant for the rest of the world to know his name, not to protect him.

One other cheating story was a very good player in Pittsburgh who "found" his ball 2 seconds before another player found his ball.  Of course, he claimed that the ball he found actually wasn't his ball once he looked at it closer.  This was before I moved there, but the other players kept a close eye on him when he played in the future.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #112 on: January 23, 2010, 12:44:48 PM »
JVB,
Have you/association resorted to 'profiling' all the  Joey/Joe/Joseph Peterson/Petersen/Pedersen's who enter your events?  ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George Pazin

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Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #113 on: January 23, 2010, 01:27:01 PM »
One other cheating story was a very good player in Pittsburgh who "found" his ball 2 seconds before another player found his ball.  Of course, he claimed that the ball he found actually wasn't his ball once he looked at it closer.  This was before I moved there, but the other players kept a close eye on him when he played in the future.

At least everyone knows it's not me, as no one would describe as a "very good player". :)

I'm off to read the blog...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2010, 02:02:10 PM »
JVB,
Have you/association resorted to 'profiling' all the  Joey/Joe/Joseph Peterson/Petersen/Pedersen's who enter your events?  ;D

No, but I'd love to have a picture of him so that we could distribute it.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2010, 02:41:25 PM »
John,
He is up here.

JohnV

Re: Starting Mon., 1/18 - Get To Know John Vander Borght
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2010, 07:51:49 PM »
John,
He is up here.

We told Barb Trammel about him when we saw he had joined Langdon Farms last year.  Didn't know he was seriously up there.

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