[Duncan Betts]

Perhaps you and I are interpreting the world "appreciate" differently, Chris. I made a point of saying I don't claim to "understand" the variety and subtle nuances of the course, but having played the course once, coupled with some not insignificant pre- and post-round literary and photographic study, I can and will claim to appreciate what it presents.

The basic strategy.
The role the greenfront hazards and internal green movement play in making pin position such a big part of the ever changing strategy and driving placement.
The way many of the greens insist upon pinpoint distance control.
The scope there is for the wind to blow from any direction without width being insufficient.
The way the small amount of elevation change is used so economically.
The temptation the "easier" holes present in goading you into overstretching your ability.

Would you agree that someone could write the above and appreciate as claimed, without even playing the course?

What is presented above is hardly groundbreaking stuff, and could easily be garnered from the hundreds of books on the subject without even visiting Scotland

[Bill_McBride]

Perhaps you and I are interpreting the world "appreciate" differently, Chris. I made a point of saying I don't claim to "understand" the variety and subtle nuances of the course, but having played the course once, coupled with some not insignificant pre- and post-round literary and photographic study, I can and will claim to appreciate what it presents.

The basic strategy.
The role the greenfront hazards and internal green movement play in making pin position such a big part of the ever changing strategy and driving placement.
The way many of the greens insist upon pinpoint distance control.
The scope there is for the wind to blow from any direction without width being insufficient.
The way the small amount of elevation change is used so economically.
The temptation the "easier" holes present in goading you into overstretching your ability.

Would you agree that someone could write the above and appreciate as claimed, without even playing the course?

What is presented above is hardly groundbreaking stuff, and could easily be garnered from the hundreds of books on the subject without even visiting Scotland

I agree, having done much the same in years of reading about the Old Course before ever arriving in St Andrews.  I knew the names of most of the bunkers (to the caddies' amusement) before ever trying to escape one.  I knew the routes chosen by players A, B, C and D as detailed by Dr Mackenzie on the 14th hole in their attempts to evade "Hell" Bunker.

I think Scott (and I) use the word "appreciate" in this context to mean "admire."  You surely can't comprehend alll those humpety bumps in front of #2 green or #13 green, but you can certainly appreciate/admire them!

[Sean Walsh]

Brian,

I know, I Know, I KNOW.

She had hit the same shot same distance same wind direction, although by the 17th it had increased a smidgen and been 5-10 yards short earlier in the round.  Thus my suggestion of same club.  I definitely should have been more forthright in my approach.  However I had not caddied for her before and after the misread on the 5th I'd settled for the shutup keep the distances and hand over the clubs routine.  I pushed it as far as I thought I could at the time (if she had had the older very experienced caddie in our group I'm certain she would have been told more forthrightly  ).   But history says she took the wood struck it beautifully and thus gained a little too much height allowing the wind to carry it into the trash.  In fact as big an error or maybe even moreso was trying to get near the pin from the trash, especially when it was only good fortune not requiring a drop. It was at that point that the play should have been for bogey as a good score.

Also it wasn't nailed on at the time that we were so far inside the cut.  I thought par par finish we'd be safe, one bogey probably safe, two bogeys outside.  And you can never count on a par at 18 with where the pin was cut near the ridge

One thing I will say for the New is that in general the greens were very difficult to read, there are a lot of putts with small almost imperceptible borrows.

As for the Eden, I've played it 8-10 times and only played 14&15 twice.  The Eden for me is 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 17 and 18.  Really good to great holes all of them. And 2, 6, 12 are all pretty good too. 14, 15, 10, 16 are a bit naff and more to the point out of place.  16 could be a good hole with a little love.

[Scott Warren]

Perhaps you and I are interpreting the world "appreciate" differently, Chris. I made a point of saying I don't claim to "understand" the variety and subtle nuances of the course, but having played the course once, coupled with some not insignificant pre- and post-round literary and photographic study, I can and will claim to appreciate what it presents.

The basic strategy.
The role the greenfront hazards and internal green movement play in making pin position such a big part of the ever changing strategy and driving placement.
The way many of the greens insist upon pinpoint distance control.
The scope there is for the wind to blow from any direction without width being insufficient.
The way the small amount of elevation change is used so economically.
The temptation the "easier" holes present in goading you into overstretching your ability.

Would you agree that someone could write the above and appreciate as claimed, without even playing the course?

What is presented above is hardly groundbreaking stuff, and could easily be garnered from the hundreds of books on the subject without even visiting Scotland

I disagree. The width and use of limited undulation has to be experienced, as does the temptation of the easier holes, IMO.

It's like the old saying: Tell me and I will know, show me and I will see, let me and I will understand.

One thing I have learned from playing some of the great courses over here is just how little articles and pictures can really tell you until you have on-site experience to relate them to.

What did you think the first time you played TOC?

[Sean_A]

A quick trip through the literature.

Doak
Old 10  New 5 – not the first time I’ve disagreed (on both scores)
The Peugeot Guide
Old 18  New 17

Pennick , Allen and Hamilton ignore the new.  Steel gives it the shortest of shrift preferring to tell us about changes to the Eden and Jubilee.

Finnegan
“Over the years I have found myself listening, from time to time, to those who prefer the New to the Old, claiming that the New is more honest, less capricious, that it presents its demands fairly, that the visitor has a chance here, that, in short, it is the better course.  There is considerable truth in this brief but not in its conclusion. Yes, the new is good golf, at times very good golf. But it is not great golf.”

Pepper
“I tended to agree with my neighbour Eric Reid, who was fond of noting that “the Old Course is not the best course in the world, it’s not the most beautiful, and it’s not the most difficult...it is simply the most famous course in the World”. IN fact, a near-year in St Andrews had led me to the view held by many of the locals, that the Old was neither the best course nor the hardest course in town! Those distinctions belonged, respectively, to the New and the Jubilee.”

I trust the Peugeot Guide on most courses in Europe and think they have hit the nail on the head with those two courses.  TOC is not a 10, it is too flawed on a number of holes to be a 10 and the New certainly not a 5.

I am not sure that Pepper has it right about the two courses but it is a close call.  The Jubilee is just a very tough and long course that is not fun at all. The Eden used to be a superb course (I never played it before Steel and The Links Trust wrecked it) but it certainly not now, far from it.  We used to use The Eden for a quick round after some lectures when I was attending Uni in Edinburgh and when I was lecturing the students for a week on the EIGCA course.  It is great for a fun quick round especially if you drop 14 and 15!

I think the Peugeot Guide inflates the value of a great many courses, but it generally gets the placement right.  Like it I too think the Old and New are much closer in quality than Doak suggests, but I am not sure where to place The New as I haven't seen it in so many years. 

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

I think the Peugeot Guide inflates the value of a great many courses, but it generally gets the placement right.  Like it I too think the Old and New are much closer in quality than Doak suggests, but I am not sure where to place The New as I haven't seen it in so many years. 

Ciao

I totally agree.  In Norway the scores are very inflated but the actual ranking is pretty spot on.

To give you an example there is a course called Miklagard (ranked no.1 by most) in Norway designed by RTJ2 that they have given 18 points. It is a basic run of the mill RTJ2 golf course, nothing really special, nothing wrong with it either.  That is just 1 (yes 1) point behind all the Top placed courses in the book.  That is ridiculous when considering there are only about 20 courses in the whole book with 19 points...

[Chris Kane]

Scott, in some respects your position is like someone who watches the pilot episode of Entourage, then goes around and tells everyone what a brilliant series it is.  Yes, they would be correct, but they really don't know what they talking about.  They haven't seen enough to have a proper appreciation of why its brilliant.

[Brent Carlson]

I thought the course was tougher than the Old, but lacked character.  It is worth a spin but I would not rate it higher than 5 on the Doak scale. 

I love St. Andrews.

[Sean_A]

I thought the course was tougher than the Old, but lacked character.  It is worth a spin but I would not rate it higher than 5 on the Doak scale.  

I love St. Andrews.

Brent

Does The New lack character or is it lacking compared to what may be one of the most characterful courses in the world - The Old?  

I am not picking on you, but it is that sort of attitude which makes me believe archies have a tough job of it to build grade level architecture on land which is less than inspiring - even though that land can yield some excellent golf - which TNC is an one of many examples of.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Scott, in some respects your position is like someone who watches the pilot episode of Entourage, then goes around and tells everyone what a brilliant series it is.  Yes, they would be correct, but they really don't know what they talking about.  They haven't seen enough to have a proper appreciation of why its brilliant.

Would it really be like that?

I'd have thought it would be more like someone saying: 'I saw the pilot of this TV show. It was really entertaining. I can't wait to see the full first season so I can really get into it, but I like the premise.'

I think we might just have to agree to agree that Emmanuelle Chriqui is insanely hot and that Ari Gold is one of the best characters ever written for TV and disagree about how much you can "get" the first time you play TOC.

Two out of three ain't bad for anyone, and for you and me I'd say it's something of an achievement!

[Brent Carlson]

Yes, that is exactly correct Sean.  The course is fine in its own right, but it was being compared to the other courses we played: TOC, N. Berwick, Muirfield, Golf House Club, Carnoustie, Dornoch.  In my mind it would be considered a hidden gem were it not located next to its illustrious neighbor.

I thought the course was tougher than the Old, but lacked character.  It is worth a spin but I would not rate it higher than 5 on the Doak scale.  

I love St. Andrews.

Brent

Does The New lack character or is it lacking compared to what may be one of the most characterful courses in the world - The Old?  

I am not picking on you, but it is that sort of attitude which makes me believe archies have a tough job of it to build grade level architecture on land which is less than inspiring - even though that land can yield some excellent golf - which TNC is an one of many examples of.

Ciao

[James Boon]

Tony,

Thanks for the photo tour. First time I've seen an detail on the New Course.

I remember enjoying the Eden couse greatly apart from the new holes, so though I'd be tempted by it again next time I'm up in St Andrews, I think I'll give the New a try instead.

Thanks again,

James

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