[Sean_A]

Scott and Sean,

How many times have you played TOC?

Brian

I can assure you, I liked TOC the first time I saw it.  I am game for an adventure and that is exactly what TOC is.  There was a caddie in our group, but I more or less ignored him and stuck to aiming left with a fade on the much of the course.  The weird thing is I only hit one fairway bunker all day which on the surface of it seems impossible.  TOC still isn't one of my very top favourites (though this has as much to do with cattle car treatment as a handful of holes of the first 10) and I don't think it is as good as many believe it is, but its still fine golf.  I have played it three times and if anything, my fondness for the course has deteriorated rather than grown, but again, this has as much to do with the system and the price as much as the course.  It especially riles me me when I consider how much better the experience would be if the Disney World atmosphere were removed.  In other words, given the history and the setting, the experience should be far greater. 

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

Sean,

That confirms what I said that nearly everyone I know goes through this little hate of the course after playing a few times, just when you think you start to understand it, you begin to not enjoy your rounds there.  Is it the weather, is it the crappy caddie, is it the price, the system?  No, it is the course messing with your mind and you start to doubt the greatness of it and think it is overpriced or not as good as you first thought.

But then, slowly but surely as you HAVE (you just cannot resist) to go back almost because of guilt you start to love her again and you go through another phase.....the "I think I know her now" phase while she coaxes you back, strokes your ego by letting you have a few good putts or rounds until again she bites back and lets you know who is boss.

That is the beauty of TOC she never lets go, she will frustrate, you may even not even come back for years but you WILL come back for that one last round of really, really enjoying her.

You probably have read the book "A Golfer's Education" by Darren Kilfara who used to post on here and I think his book summarizes TOC and phases a player might go through very well.

[Scott Warren]

The difference is that NSW does not have the width that TOC has to be able to create different ways of playing the course.

NSW is penal TOC is not.

TOC is one of the greatest courses in the world and has been ranked in the top 5 or 10 in all publications since golf publications have existed.  

NSW has not.  

There were at least 30 others on the day that we played the course that thought it was overated as well, not just myself.

What NSW does have is major landforms on at least 5-6 holes that cause those holes to play wildly different depending on the wind, and in many marginal winds present the golfer with options that depend largely on his bravery and personal strengths.

I don't think any seaside course can be wholly understood in one visit, but the oft uttered line about TOC is, in my opinion, bollocks.

[Brian Phillips]

Once.

I never said "understand". I said "enjoy and appreciate".

Given your comments about NSWGC based on one round played predominantly from the ladies tees, I think there's decent irony in your stance.

Sledging an Aussie makes my day....  

Funny that there were about 30-40 others that agreed with me as well...including Tim Liddy but what the hell does he know.

Even Walshe agrees with me...  

[Sean_A]

Sean,

That confirms what I said that nearly everyone I know goes through this little hate of the course after playing a few times, just when you think you start to understand it, you begin to not enjoy your rounds there.  Is it the weather, is it the crappy caddie, is it the price, the system?  No, it is the course messing with your mind and you start to doubt the greatness of it and think it is overpriced or not as good as you first thought.

But then, slowly but surely as you HAVE (you just cannot resist) to go back almost because of guilt you start to love her again and you go through another phase.....the "I think I know her now" phase while she coaxes you back, strokes your ego by letting you have a few good putts or rounds until again she bites back and lets you know who is boss.

That is the beauty of TOC she never lets go, she will frustrate, you may even not even come back for years but you WILL come back for that one last round of really, really enjoying her.

You probably have read the book "A Golfer's Education" by Darren Kilfara who used to post on here and I think his book summarizes TOC and phases a player might go through very well.

Brian

What coaxes me back to TOC is the quality of the course - one of the best I have played.  Sure there are deficiencies, but the back 9 makes up for an awful lot.  TOC not being one of my favourites is another question altogether and this is mainly due to peripheral issues rather than the course.  What I am saying is even given the quality of the course, it isn't good enough to overcome the cattle car/Disney World treatment/atmosphere, the shark prices (which don't need to be anything like what they are) and the slow pace of play to make it one of my favourites - which to me is more important than being a great course because there is plenty of very fine golf about to not get so hung up on what is the best.  To seal the deal for a guy like me trying to avoid the rat race - they play off mats much of the winter.  

I am not one who likes to show up and just play a golf course with blinkers on to everything else.  That is what a membership is for.  When playing away it is a different story.

Ciao

[Robin_Hiseman]

Well, I loved TOC the first time I played it too, but then I, like I suspect all of us who have been there, was somewhat familiar with it from books, tv, magazines etc..., so it wasn't, as Brian's thread seems to suggest, an entirely virginal experience when I stepped on the 1st tee.  

And yes, of course, I was wrapped up in the 'experience' of playing such an historic venue and following in the footspteps of legends.  Is that not one of golf's major appeals?

What I have come to dislike is The Old Course experience.  OK, i'll give the starter his dues at setting it up for you as a round of a lifetime, but I resent being herded about like cattle if you drop a couple of minutes behind the clock, simply because you've had the misfortune to have to search for an errant ball, or heaven forbid, get stuck in a bunker.  The last time I played there, one of my group basically put his ball in his pocket for the entire back nine, because he couldn't stand the stress of being hounded by the marshals.  That is no way to treat a customer paying over £100, in my humble opinion.  I'll do without a caddie next time too.  Take away the razzmatazz and TOC remains a giant of a golf course.  I'm looking forward to playing it again in March at the EIGCA AGM, when i'm sure Brian and I will compare notes on the experience.

[Chris Kane]

Given your comments about NSWGC based on one round played predominantly from the ladies tees, I think there's decent irony in your stance.

C'mon Scott!  The Old Course almost certainly has the steepest learning curve of any championship course in the world - the learning curve (or time it takes to understand it) is nothing like NSW.

[Andrew Thomson]

I hated TOC the first time I played it, but I was only 11 years old.

I've since been back only a handful of times and I loved it, but I would never be so presumptious to suggest I understand or appreciate it.  I probably wouldn't even have it in my Top 10, but can accept that if I played it 20 more times it would creep up the ladder with every game.

The first time I played it, obviously doesn't really count - but it did help a little bit when I went back a second time close to a decade later as I had read every book imaginable on the course and also watched tournaments on the TV there, so had a decent 'visual memory bank' for the 2nd visit.  There are still some holes I just don't 'get' which is why I don't hold the course in as high regard as others.

I don't think you can really appreciate any great golf course in one single play, but TOC would likely be the one that needs the most repeat visits for a true understanding.  I'm beginning to think I have the same problem with Cape Kidnappers and Kauri Cliffs, although I am less inclined to believe m views on Kauri would change.  I thought Kauri was a rubbish course with good views, and I thought Cape Kidnappers was an exceptionally good course with some of the best views I've ever experienced on a golf course, I think  I was somewhat distracted by the views, and missed a bit at Cape Kidnappers that perhaps I shouldn't have, while Kauri I still believe to be a poor result. 

[Andrew Summerell]

Andrew,

I used to detest it.  I have played it many times now as well as backwards and only in recent outings have I started to enjoy the golf.  I prefer the New over the Old as do most locals.  I don't know if the locals prefer the New because you can play it quicker or that they think it is a better course.

I have said on here that anyone who likes TOC the first time is either lying or is too nostalgic to be objective or is American and has never seen or played links courses before.  The course is too blind from the tee for anyone to understand it the first time they play it.

Brian,

I've played TOC quite a few times now. I had walked the course on 3 separate occasions before playing it, so when I had my first round I at least had a reasonable idea where things were.

I’m reasonably ambivalent regarding my preference between the New, Jubilee & Eden courses, as there are aspects in all three courses that I like. I enjoyed the internal movement in the green on The New course.

[Brian Phillips]

Tony,

I am really sorry that we have hijacked your thread.  Maybe one of us should start a new one?

[Andrew Summerell]

Tony,

I am really sorry that we have hijacked your thread.  Maybe one of us should start a new one?

Brian, I thought my last sentence made a ‘TV show host’ quality segway back to The New course & the internal movement in its greens. Obviously my segway wasn’t that good & that TV show host job won’t be forth coming as I had hoped.

[Brian Phillips]

I wasn't meaning you Andrew...I meant it generally.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I'm looking forward to playing it again in March at the EIGCA AGM

When of course, we'll be on mats... I'm a little nervous about that perhaps because I've no experience of it... Has anyone else?

As for The New Course, I'm really looking forward to tackling that one again too...

[Andrew Thomson]

Brian, I thought my last sentence made a ‘TV show host’ quality segway back to The New course & the internal movement in its greens. Obviously my segway wasn’t that good & that TV show host job won’t be forth coming as I had hoped.

I'm not sure how useful a segway would be in this instance?



 

[Andrew Summerell]

Tony, (& others that have played it)

I always found it had an understated nature to its design. Is this something others have found when they have played it? I’ve always felt many modern courses on flattish sites could learn a lesson from TNC in regards to its modesty with undulations around its green complexes.

I wasn't meaning you Andrew...I meant it generally.

Don't worry Brian, I was only joking.

I'm not sure how useful a segway would be in this instance?

It would be great down those artificial grass paths.

[Mark Pearce]

What I have come to dislike is The Old Course experience.  OK, i'll give the starter his dues at setting it up for you as a round of a lifetime, but I resent being herded about like cattle if you drop a couple of minutes behind the clock, simply because you've had the misfortune to have to search for an errant ball, or heaven forbid, get stuck in a bunker.  The last time I played there, one of my group basically put his ball in his pocket for the entire back nine, because he couldn't stand the stress of being hounded by the marshals.  That is no way to treat a customer paying over £100, in my humble opinion.

The first time I played it was 18 years ago with my wife and a young Irishman who joined us as a walk on on the tee.  None of us had caddies or hafd played the course before.  We lost a little ground on the group ahead (a pair in plus fours both with caddies who I, at the time, assumed to be R&A members)by the 7th and got a bit disoriented there.  A marshall approached us and told us to miss out 8 and 9 and play 10 after the two ball in front.  We refused and picked up the pace by, basically, running between shots.  By the 11th we had caught the two-ball in front and then, still as a three ball, were foreced to wait on every shot.  At no stage did a marshall approach the two ball in front.

I actually played quite well on the back 9 and managed to enjoy it.  The experience did mean that my wife, who as a born and bred Scots golfer hates to be accused of slow play, had a miserable experience.  Really not the way to deal with paying customers.  I didn't play the course again 'til last summer, when I enjoyed a round with Bryan Izzatt and two American golfers, one of whom had a caddie.  I had a blast but then it helped that I did play well.

[Brian Phillips]

I'm looking forward to playing it again in March at the EIGCA AGM

When of course, we'll be on mats... I'm a little nervous about that perhaps because I've no experience of it... Has anyone else?

As for The New Course, I'm really looking forward to tackling that one again too...

It is crap. I have played off mats on TOC and it is awful.  Kick it into the rough and then you don't have to play off the mat..ahem ahem

I am not playing at the AGM because of this.  It will probably snow as well...so I will sit in the Jigger watching you poor bastards freeze to death out there...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Gentlemen

Lets not forget that originally there was only one, TOC then for a while only two, The New Course & TOC. Followed rather quickly by a shorter Ladies/Duffers course of 12 holes, before being extended to 18. Then a longer gap to the fourth, The Eden. The last IMHO of the St Andrews golf Courses.

So in the beginning there was one alone and she was magnificent, wild, enticing, well experienced yet one would be hard pressed to guess her age. The simplicity of her surroundings,
The Eden Estuary, The North Sea being her ever present chaperones, her honour protected by   weather and the natural hazards, all adding up to the fun of the challenge and enjoyment that is if she feels you are worthy. She focused the golfing mind, she set the standard for all that was and still is to come as lessons are still to be learnt from TOC at St Andrews. The New Course, the overspill course for TOC was and is a great course in her own right. Overshadowed by her older sister, perhaps, but for fun and enjoyment with a touch of class and that links wildness, she is certainly a match for her older sister.

I suppose ones golfing likes, are similar to that of how we each approach our women. Some like the fast hard hitting approach feeling that distance and speed is the real hallmark of a golfer and so a real man. Others feel that if the lady in question is what they seek then the approach should reflect their feelings, starting off with respect and consideration for her incorporating their own desires and disposition. The ability to bond and slowly uncover her secrets offers far more fun and enjoyment, thus encouraging you to want to seek a long term relationship. My option is the latter, as I feel certain the former would perhaps just leave me full of male embarrassment rather than pride and I believe would not endear me to myself or any of my conquests (if that is the right term when dealing with women or golf) in the long term.

Judge the courses on their own merits after all is it advisable ever to compare sisters. Never forget Gentlemen, you are encountering Ladies.

Melvyn       

[Chris Kane]

I don't think any seaside course can be wholly understood in one visit, but the oft uttered line about TOC is, in my opinion, bollocks.

I missed this gem earlier - how can you make that call when you just aren't qualified!

Those of us, who as Matt Ward would say have done the 'heavy lifting' by playing and seeing it multiple times, appreciate what it takes to understand and truly appreciate the course.  I would suggest that if you did the same (and with so much time left in the UK, you have no excuses!), you might have a different view.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't think any seaside course can be wholly understood in one visit, but the oft uttered line about TOC is, in my opinion, bollocks.

I missed this gem earlier - how can you make that call when you just aren't qualified!

Those of us, who as Matt Ward would say have done the 'heavy lifting' by playing and seeing it multiple times, appreciate what it takes to understand and truly appreciate the course.  I would suggest that if you did the same (and with so much time left in the UK, you have no excuses!), you might have a different view.

Chris and Scott, just curious how far apart you two live in Australia.  Perhaps another "grudge match" could be arranged!    Scott returns in your late spring 2010, should be lovely golf weather!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thanks to Melvyn for this.




I know Moriaty has argued several times that the old measuring of distances is not to be trusted but... interesting that it was designed as a longer track than The Old Course.

Have the following holes really got shorter 2, 5, 8, 9, 13, 14, 16.  IN the Case of 9 it seems unlikely that 55 yards have been lost. However the comparitive measure vs the Old Course could be right.



PS is anyone else smiling at the idea of someone apologising to ME for a threadjack.

Brian whare have you been everytime the great Aguter Simpson thread is revived?

[Scott Warren]

I don't think any seaside course can be wholly understood in one visit, but the oft uttered line about TOC is, in my opinion, bollocks.

I missed this gem earlier - how can you make that call when you just aren't qualified!

Those of us, who as Matt Ward would say have done the 'heavy lifting' by playing and seeing it multiple times, appreciate what it takes to understand and truly appreciate the course.  I would suggest that if you did the same (and with so much time left in the UK, you have no excuses!), you might have a different view.

Perhaps you and I are interpreting the world "appreciate" differently, Chris. I made a point of saying I don't claim to "understand" the variety and subtle nuances of the course, but having played the course once, coupled with some not insignificant pre- and post-round literary and photographic study, I can and will claim to appreciate what it presents.

The basic strategy.
The role the greenfront hazards and internal green movement play in making pin position such a big part of the ever changing strategy and driving placement.
The way many of the greens insist upon pinpoint distance control.
The scope there is for the wind to blow from any direction without width being insufficient.
The way the small amount of elevation change is used so economically.
The temptation the "easier" holes present in goading you into overstretching your ability.

These are all things that you can see are prevalent the first time you play. Or at least I could.

Is it enough to truly "know" the course? No.
Is it enough to realise it is a great golf course that could never get boring or predictable? Yes.

I realise you spent a long time in the town and know the course much better than I do. I don't doubt you come to appreciate TOC much, much more with repeat play, but in my opinion, to say it's impossible to appreciate its strengths on the first play is untrue.

Chris and Scott, just curious how far apart you two live in Australia.  Perhaps another "grudge match" could be arranged!    Scott returns in your late spring 2010, should be lovely golf weather!

I don't doubt Chris is a nice bloke. Both you and Tony Muldoon like him, and that's good enough for me. Hopefully we can tee it up when I get home. He only lives about 2.5hrs from where I'm based in Australia.

[Tony_Muldoon]

A quick trip through the literature.

Doak
Old 10  New 5 – not the first time I’ve disagreed (on both scores)
The Peugeot Guide
Old 18  New 17

Pennick , Allen and Hamilton ignore the new.  Steel gives it the shortest of shrift preferring to tell us about changes to the Eden and Jubilee.

Finnegan
“Over the years I have found myself listening, from time to time, to those who prefer the New to the Old, claiming that the New is more honest, less capricious, that it presents its demands fairly, that the visitor has a chance here, that, in short, it is the better course.  There is considerable truth in this brief but not in its conclusion. Yes, the new is good golf, at times very good golf. But it is not great golf.”

Pepper
“I tended to agree with my neighbour Eric Reid, who was fond of noting that “the Old Course is not the best course in the world, it’s not the most beautiful, and it’s not the most difficult...it is simply the most famous course in the World”. IN fact, a near-year in St Andrews had led me to the view held by many of the locals, that the Old was neither the best course nor the hardest course in town! Those distinctions belonged, respectively, to the New and the Jubilee.”

[Brian Phillips]

A quick trip through the literature.

Doak
Old 10  New 5 – not the first time I’ve disagreed (on both scores)
The Peugeot Guide
Old 18  New 17

Pennick , Allen and Hamilton ignore the new.  Steel gives it the shortest of shrift preferring to tell us about changes to the Eden and Jubilee.

Finnegan
“Over the years I have found myself listening, from time to time, to those who prefer the New to the Old, claiming that the New is more honest, less capricious, that it presents its demands fairly, that the visitor has a chance here, that, in short, it is the better course.  There is considerable truth in this brief but not in its conclusion. Yes, the new is good golf, at times very good golf. But it is not great golf.”

Pepper
“I tended to agree with my neighbour Eric Reid, who was fond of noting that “the Old Course is not the best course in the world, it’s not the most beautiful, and it’s not the most difficult...it is simply the most famous course in the World”. IN fact, a near-year in St Andrews had led me to the view held by many of the locals, that the Old was neither the best course nor the hardest course in town! Those distinctions belonged, respectively, to the New and the Jubilee.”

I trust the Peugeot Guide on most courses in Europe and think they have hit the nail on the head with those two courses.  TOC is not a 10, it is too flawed on a number of holes to be a 10 and the New certainly not a 5.

I am not sure that Pepper has it right about the two courses but it is a close call.  The Jubilee is just a very tough and long course that is not fun at all. The Eden used to be a superb course (I never played it before Steel and The Links Trust wrecked it) but it certainly not now, far from it.  We used to use The Eden for a quick round after some lectures when I was attending Uni in Edinburgh and when I was lecturing the students for a week on the EIGCA course.  It is great for a fun quick round especially if you drop 14 and 15!

[Chris Kane]

I really enjoyed the New - it was where I played the most of my week-to-week golf when I was living there in 2006-07.  That said, despite playing about as many rounds there as the Old, the holes don't stick vividly in my mind like those on the Old do.  In my view it was the second best course in town when I was there (I havn't seen the Castle) - despite the Eden having better greens.

I suspect the locals like the New because its easy to get on and a 3.5 hour round instead of 5 hours.  You can get a game within half an hour - the same cannot be said for the Old nine months of the year. 

Doak gave it 5 - I'd be tempted to give it 6 myself.

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