[Cliff Hamm]

  If you can hit driver, 3 or 4 metal or 2 o 3 hybrid well enough, you can play every tee shot at Tobacco Road.

 

And I suspect every other course in the world

As a 16 handicapper have played TR twice enjoying it immensley.  Both times had rounds around 90.  First day played the 6300 yard tees and second day 5800 yard tees.  Played about the same each day and scores were similar.  Enjoyed it more though from the shorter tees as it wasn't so much of a struggle.

[A.G._Crockett]

  If you can hit driver, 3 or 4 metal or 2 o 3 hybrid well enough, you can play every tee shot at Tobacco Road.

 

And I suspect every other course in the world

As a 16 handicapper have played TR twice enjoying it immensley.  Both times had rounds around 90.  First day played the 6300 yard tees and second day 5800 yard tees.  Played about the same each day and scores were similar.  Enjoyed it more though from the shorter tees as it wasn't so much of a struggle.

Cliff,
And that's the point; TR is a relatively easy golf course for a good player having a good day driving the golf ball.  But the slope rating from those 6300 yd. tees is 142 for a very good reason!  For short hitters, or for anyone who gets really crooked off the tee, TR is just too tough.  I don't know if I have ever played another course with a slope of 142 from that kind of yardage, and I didn't appreciate the impact of that until I played TR one day with somebody who was struggling off the tee.  There were a lot of places they could have played that day and enjoyed their round, but not TR.

I think TR is a place that has to be taken as unique.  You have to appreciate the art of the place, and if that also turns into a good score, great.  But the scorecard has to be very, very secondary, and for many golfers that isn't within their mindset.

[Ronald Montesano]

One more proof of the great fallacy "drive for show, putt for dough."  If you cain't drive, you hain't gerna be around lawng 'nough to putt.

[George Pazin]

My opinion is that folks on this site and beyond that complain about Tobacco Road are intimidated by abnormal visual targeting and would complain about any Strantz course (or any course that requires similar visceral fortitude.)  Man up, store up and release!

Might be your opinion, but it doesn't make it true.

One can be intimidated and still enjoy the thrill of a good challenge. One can also be blissfully ignorant and not enjoy the thrill of a conquered challenge.

At any rate, I think the course is quite fun, just not nearly as unique or special as many on here. Doesn't make my opinion right and everyone else wrong, nor does it make mine wrong. It's just different.

Guess I should just "man up" and go along with everyone else...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike you are not the first nor the last to see the genius in TR and yet be stumped but its fatal flaws. I am not sure I have met the golfer who would want it to be their home club, but I never fail to push a visitor to Pinehurst to go play there.

[Morgan Stephenson]

Thanks for everyone's interest inTR. Regarding drainage issues: We have had a tremendous amount of rain so far this fall and winter. The amount of rainfall may not be that much but the frequency of the rains has allowed little time in between to dry out. Even though we are considered in the sandhills region, there is still a good bit of clay on site. Especially where more dirt was moved. I can assure you that our wet conditions are not the result of overwatering but a combination of design features and soil conditions. I can tell you that the course is/was wetter now than it ever has been and I've been here since construction. Hopefully we'll have a better weather trend on the way that will improve our playing conditions. 

[Chris DeNigris]

Tiger- I can assure you that there are thousands of us out there that don't have a home club or belong to something substantially less interesting or exceptional that would gladly suffer continual and repeated rounds at TR. In a heartbeat.

What exactly is fatal about the flaws? Or were you just exagerating it's imminent demise?

George- While I agree that there are many aspects of TR that are debateable, not sure unique is really one of them. In fact it seems to be it's most universally accepted characteristic...Can you name a bunch of courses that clearly surpass TR on uniqueness?

[A.G._Crockett]

Tiger- I can assure you that there are thousands of us out there that don't have a home club or belong to something substantially less interesting or exceptional that would gladly suffer continual and repeated rounds at TR. In a heartbeat.

What exactly is fatal about the flaws? Or were you just exagerating it's imminent demise?

George- While I agree that there are many aspects of TR that are debateable, not sure unique is really one of them. In fact it seems to be it's most universally accepted characteristic...Can you name a bunch of courses that clearly surpass TR on uniqueness?

Chris,
I would assume that by "fatal" he meant built in, rather than leading to death!  There have been discussion here for years now about why Tobacco Road doesn't make the Top 100 lists, and I was generally one of the people that argued that it should.

I've changed my opinion about that somewhat following some ratings explanations from Tom Huckaby, and also after playing a round at TR with a golfer who was really struggling off the tee.

But you are dead right about the uniqueness of the place.  There is just nothing else quite like it, and any golfer who can get themselves away from concepts like scorecards and "fairness" is in for one of the real treats in GCA.  Like Tiger Bernhardt, I have urged anybody headed for the Sandhills area to be sure to get there, especially if they are interested in GCA at all.

[A.G._Crockett]

Thanks for everyone's interest inTR. Regarding drainage issues: We have had a tremendous amount of rain so far this fall and winter. The amount of rainfall may not be that much but the frequency of the rains has allowed little time in between to dry out. Even though we are considered in the sandhills region, there is still a good bit of clay on site. Especially where more dirt was moved. I can assure you that our wet conditions are not the result of overwatering but a combination of design features and soil conditions. I can tell you that the course is/was wetter now than it ever has been and I've been here since construction. Hopefully we'll have a better weather trend on the way that will improve our playing conditions. 

Morgan,
Welcome to the site!  I hope to be at TR in March and/or April; I'll try to say hello if I make it there.

[Ronald Montesano]

I agree with Chris; if something like TR existed in western New York, it would be sold out.  It finds itself in a tourist destination; does this take away from memberships?  What is TR's membership number (Paging Morgan Stephenson)?

For a player of my ability (I am a traveling 5 and believe I had 80 from the tips), the mistakes were a result of not knowing the course/where to play shots and poor putting.  I was somewhat intimidated by the tee shot on 1, although I did find the fairway.  After the first hole, I became more precise in my target selection and drove the ball better, if not always in the proper place.

I assume that scratch and below golfers have no trouble with the course.  I would like to hear specifically (and honestly!) from a 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 handicap about their experiences on the course.  What is it that did and did not intimidate them?  Did they score near or far from their expected score, based on their handicap?

[Cliff Hamm]

As posted earlier I play to a 16 or so.  Shot a 90 or so both from the 6300 and the 5800 yard tees.  For whatever reason score did not vary and my play was pretty consistent both days.  I did not find TR that intimidating.  Tee shots are to wide fairways.  Narrow drives are intimidating.  Given options it is a challenge but not intimidating.  Ditto when greens are not small.

The only intimidating shot I recall was the second into 7.  I recall it being a rather long shot off of an uneven lie.  Second shot on 9 was perhaps a bit intimidating.

There is a big difference between intimidating and challenging.  A course that allows for options is only intimidating if you choose to bite off more than your skills allow.   That is why the second shot on 7 was intimidating.  No options as it is a forced carry.  TR is full of options and that is why it is such a joy to play.

[Chris DeNigris]

Cliff- you could have laid up on #7 

I guess I've played it 8-10 times and it seems that each time we go there something bizarre happens.

This past spring something very odd happened on hole #4.  The handicaps in our foursome were 8, 10, 16 and 26. On our morning round somehow all the planets were magically aligned when we got to that short par 5-and we carded 2 natural eagles and 2 birdies...and I missed the shortest eagle putt, so it could have been even more wild.. One of the eagles was had by the 26! Now granted it's a short 5 and we were playing from the 5900 tees, but still...never had anything close to that happen in 40 years of playing.

Of course in the afternoon round we had 2 bogeys, a double and a dreaded other.

There's just something magical about that place.

[Ryan Admussen]

Booked my tee time today for April, can't wait to see what all the fuss it about!

[John Moore II]

Mike-I've been saying stuff like this for the past 2 years about Tobacco Road. And I'm glad someone has finally really backed up some of what I have said. Tobacco Road is, in many respects, overrated by many. Its simply not a top 100 course as so many try to say that it is.

Now, is it where design jumped the shark? I don't think so. It was built on an extreme site and given the area, needed to be original in order to survive. And considering that I have played nothing like it anywhere else (at least nothing not designed by Mike Strantz) I don't think it really set a trend for anything that has happened since.

All this being said, I think TR is a good course, one I could play numerous times, but I do not for one second think its the top 100 course that many on here say that it is.

[Sean_A]

Nothing off the tee really intimidates me at The Road except for maybe 18.  It isn't the carry though, its trying to find the exact spot for a peek at the green because hitting to that sucker blind is tough.

The one aspect which does get into my head is the lack of ground game options.  I think I counted something like 13 approaches which are flat out aerial shots and a few more if you take the risk.  I am a 9 capper and I look to get my ball down as soon as I can, but The Road just doesn't allow for this style of play.  I am not saying its bad architecture because I really like The Road.  What I am saying is that this and the walk are the major reasons I wouldn't care to play the course often.  I still recall playing the 12th and trying to bump a shot to a forward pin only to watch it stall badly.  People go on about the green having great slopes, but imo this aspect of the course is partially compromised by the lack of options to bounce em' in there and see what gives. 

Ciao

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff- you could have laid up on #7 

Said it was intimidating....didn't say I didn't pull it off

[Jay Flemma]

Mike you are not the first nor the last to see the genius in TR and yet be stumped but its fatal flaws. I am not sure I have met the golfer who would want it to be their home club, but I never fail to push a visitor to Pinehurst to go play there.

Tiger, it's possible I could play every day there and never get bored.  I think it would make a terrific home course and would give a player who played it all the time a terrific advantage.  Although if it were a choice between TR and Bulls Bay, I might choose Bulls Bay.

[Mike Cirba]

Guys, I'm really enjoying the discussion and this is the level of analysis and opinion I was hoping for, fore and aft....

Great stuff!

[George Pazin]

George- While I agree that there are many aspects of TR that are debateable, not sure unique is really one of them. In fact it seems to be it's most universally accepted characteristic...Can you name a bunch of courses that clearly surpass TR on uniqueness?

I guess that depends on how you define "unique".

It is TR that is unique, or is it Mike's visual style?

Can I name a bunch? No, but I certainly wouldn't put it at the top of my list, which was Mike's statement. I would classify Applebrook as more unique, and Black Mesa at least as unique. And while it goes directly to my own personal philosophy of golf, I would call Rawls more unique, and I'd bet a lot of money I will find Ballyneal, Wolf Point, Cape K, Sand Hills and Stone Eagle more unique once I've been lucky enough to have played each. I'd call several of Pete Dye's courses more unique, allowing for that fact that there are many similarities to each other.

Heck, I'd call Wolf Creek in NV more unique, and everyone on here knows how I feel about WC.

And, for the record, I enjoy bold statements like Mike's, they are wonderful for encouraging discussion. I just happen to disagree with this particular one.

One big problem I have with TR is that, by my recollection (and remember it was one play more than 10 years ago), many of the fairways are too smoothed out. I can't remember an awkward stance from anything other than a greenside shot. I believe this is a direct result of the hop-scotch target directed nature of the course, as I've seen similar on the handful of other modern target oriented courses.

In many ways, this obscures my overall feelings on the course, similar to Black Mesa. I enjoyed both courses a great deal, I just don't hold them in as high regard as most on this site.

[Mac Plumart]

May 2nd at 10:30 I will be standing tall on the first tee at Tobacco Road.

I have been excited about it...but reading this thread makes me even more excited about it.

FYI...I think I've got an extra spot in my foursome if someone wants to join me.

[Cliff Hamm]

I don't believe anyone has mentioned the strength of the par 5's.  Typically par 5's are the weakest set of pars on a course.  I can't name another course I have played where the 5's stand out as much.  It has been stated the 3's are not that strong and I agree wholeheartedly.  As the uniqueness of TR is discussed, one cannot ignore that the par 5's are one of the reasons.

[Ronald Montesano]

I never say this, as I despise par fours, but I think the 4s are the strength of Tobacco Road.  Here's why:

Strantz starts you off with two short (sub 380) par fours.  As long as you keep your head, you'll probably hit short iron or wedge into them (number two crowns, then runs downhill, if I remember correctly).  Both greens are challenging but puttable.

Next, he moves you to two intimidating mothers in 7 and 9.  If you haven't found it yet, there is a runway down the right side of seven.  Sure, it's the tight side, but you can fly down that hill and have short iron or wedge in.  I went center-left, got caught up in the slope and put it in the front right bunker.  My buddy, The Scrambler, mistakenly went right and had nothing in.  These two greens are a notch above the first two par fours, with seven showing horizontal predominance and nine, vertical.

10 and 12 are like two and five, except a bit longer.  Again, keep your head on ten by staying left and you'll have a shot at the green.  On twelve, get it out into the bowl and the same holds true.  Two more terrific green surrounds.

15 and 16 are crazy holes, ones that demand you abandon all logic and hit the ball with blind faith.  Neither hole requires driver to get within 150.  It's the second shot on each that determines your fate.

Could he finish you off with more of a challenge than the tee ball on 18?  My guess is no...except that the challenge coming into the green surrounds is its equal!!  I went left from the tips off the tee, caught a massive break and bounced into safety, hit 8 just above the hole and snuggled down for a tap-in par.

I don't think all the 3s are weak.  Three isn't much from tee to green, but what a green!!  I'm a big fan of the 6th hole, his cauldron hole (he also has one at True Blue.)  I call it that because the green sits below you, with at least 180 degrees of tees.  Having seen the original sketch of 8 as an homage to Pine Valley's 10th, I wish he would have done that.  I think he couldn't resist a rising, boomerang green set into the hillside.  14 weak?  Y'all lucky I found Jesus!!!  17 is a faux-cauldron (similar to #3 at Tot Hill Farm) that I'd have to play again to determine its worth.

Par 5s?  I didn't like #1 nearly as much as my buddy, The Scrambler, did.  Tee-gap-fairway-gap-fairway-green...too dramatic for me.  I didn't like #4 at True Blue and I don't like at at Tobacco Road.  Just not my cup of tee.  Back nine--11?  Loved it!  I went left on second, pitched up and missed for 4.  Scrambler went at it, into pit of despair, got it up and down for 4.  13?  Loved it.  Got it on in 3 with two putts for 5.  Would love to play it a few more times (like 17) to determine, in this case, how much I loved it.

For me, par fours are the strength of this course.

[Mac Plumart]

Wait a minute and please excuse the threadjack...

you hate par 4's?

Please explain, briefly, to not totally derail the thread.

[Ronald Montesano]

OK, briefly...I love par fives because they give brute strength a chance to absolutely steal a shot.  I love par threes because I get the perfect lie, every time, and I know the architect was thinking "OK, I get one shot on this hole, so it had best be sweet."  With par fives, they have to link 3 interesting shots to make the hole, in my mind.  The only par fours I absolutely love are the shorties, like #6 & #17 at Pete Dye.  They allow both brute strength and weak guile to co-exist.

Not saying it's logical, just my own thinking.  However, it's not like I skip the par fours!!

[Sean_A]

Well, I probably lean in the camp of all sets of pars being equally flawed and equally brilliant.  

Par 5s:

#1 is ok, perhaps a bit to much flare with the gap and blind 2nd/3rd.  However, it does have a great green and it rewards the guy who can shape a fade after hitting a ballsy drive to the right of the fairway.

#4 is a brilliant stroke of genius.  The flat bellies can reach this in two fairly comfortably over the waste area, but shorter hitters can wing a second out to the right and take the kick down to reach and playing it this way generally feeds shots directly to many hole locations.  

#11 is a classic risk/reward hole with the slight flaw that the lay-up 2nd for less proficient golfer is probably too difficult.  Heck, what am I talking about?  Its difficult for anybody - that is why I look to go at this green in two if remotely possible.

#13  The drive is very awkward and not to my taste especially as the flat bellies can take it oer' the top of the trees and have a short iron in. The lay-up for the 2nd isn't a lot of fun to hit.  Yet we get a taste of fun in the third.  

All in all there are probably equal measures of greatness and not quite the cigar with the par 5s.


Pars 3s:

#3 is a decent par 3 - seems quite straight forward.  Front hole location is fun. 

#6 is world class imo.  The concept of the wide tees is exactly what I believe architecture should be moving toward.  

#8 is a good enough hole, but I think one problem is that putting from below one can't really get close to a back right hole location.  This wouldn't really be a problem on its own, but there are a few other examples of this sort of thing (see #11 and #15).  

#14 features the same sort of narrow green concept as #s 6 and 17, but I think the hole is a very good one with the proviso that a bailout area short left should have been provided.

#17 isn't a bad hole, but its situation of playing from what amounts to the 18th tee makes it untenable imo.  Plus, it features the narrow wide green again.  All in all, this hole brings down the quality of the 3s.

In total, I don't see all that much difference in quality between the 3s and 5s.

Par 4s:

#2 Not a bad hole, I am not overly keen on the carry drive, but the 2nd is lovely with the backdrop and knowing that long is wrong.

#5 is a good either/or hole.  It isn't quite the cat's meow, but then it doesn't need to be.

#7 is all about the green.  Get it in the wrong section and the relative ease of this much easier than it looks hole evens out.  

#9 is a hole one probably loves or hates.  I think it is brilliant and flawed.  There needs to be a bit more room left (perhaps a bunker to retain the severity of the miss, but one is still able to find the ball), but the do or dieness of this hole is great fun.

#10 is a hole not many talk about.  I like it a lot because it is a bit of sanity in the Strantz canvass.  Its straight-forward but still needs some ball placement.  

#12 has the dreaded double hazard of a tree blocking the shot from the right sand.  But the green is very cool.  I do think there needs to be something forward of the right sand - maybe 50-75 yards short and right of the green to make the flat bellies shape their drive if they are going for the slammmer.  All the trouble on this hole is focused on the shorter hitter. 

#15 Its a crazy hole and the left side of the green is totally unreasonable.  The combo of the drive, approach and green is too much.  A saving grace is the wonderfully cut grass leading from the green to 16th tee.  I always felt the flat belly could get his drive down there and have an easy chip n' putt for birdie. 

Its a shame #16 follows # 15 because on its own its a good lay-up hole which still requires some precision off the tee.  Its just that the flow of these two holes with funky drives is a bit halting. 

#18 has a great green site and like #2, the drive needn't be so harsh.  However, the beauty of the carry is quite something to see.  

The 4s are a wild mix great and ott architecture.  Quite a bit like the par 3s and 5s really.  

I wish the course had a few more straight shooters like the 3rd and 10th.  Hopefully one day they will build a new par 3 between #12 and 13 which is more staid and make the worst hole, #17, a bye hole or #19 (played out of order).  This would serve to bring a little more orthodoxy to the course and eliminate two dreadful walks.

Ciao

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