[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

David
It is believed Colt made two trips to the N.America, the first in 1911 and the second in 1913. I'm not sure exactly when Colt was involved with Detroit GC, only that he listed the course among the courses he designed or redesigned. He also listed CC of Detroit (Grosse Point Farm) which he designed in 1911, so it was known he was in the area. He also worked with Ross in 1913. It is known that Ross built Old Elm for Colt in 1913 and while in Chicago Colt also submitted designs for Exmoor and Indian Hill. Both courses list themselves as Ross designs from 1914, in fact even Old Elm lists itself as Ross design to this day (even though the evidence is clear it was a Colt design). Detroit GC purchased additional land in 1913 to add a second 18, which Ross began to build in 1914.

TE
I wouldn't read to much into my comments regarding PV and Colt, it was in the context of why he wasn't mentioned with the same frequency as MacKenzie, Ross, Macdonald, etc and the possible explanation being a lack of activity in the States. There is no doubt Crump deserves major credit, but on the other hand I wouldn't discount Colt's involvement. I think characterizing his involvement as rumor is a little unfair, the fact that Crump paid Colt's full design fee would seem to elevate it above rumor. Also the series of articles written by Tillinghast at the time - in which he gave Colt considerable credit - should not be ignored.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

I'm not trying to discount anything Colt may have done at Pine Valley--I'm simply trying to find out what exactly he did do, but it's a bit more complex than that! What Colt did he did for a week or two in the late Spring of 1913, and what he left at Pine Valley (the hole drawings) are detailed--so they are easy to compare to the way the course was built and how it's always been.

In the spring of 1913 things had barely begun. The timelines of what Crump did almost exactly then and later are all there in the archives to a fair extent. That's how Finegan was able to compile the very interesting, unique and unusually long duration chronicle of Crump's involvment on the site night and day for almost six years.

But by the time the course got under construction and the five years it was in construction Colt appears to have been long gone, never to return or possibly never to have been consulted again although clearly Alison was in 1921, three years after Crump's death!

So it's interesting as hell as to what he may have done or not done, how and why. The thing that would lead one to believe that Crump was in no way being skimpy with the credit Colt deserved is the known remarks made about what is actually known to have been his contibutions--particularly #5.

So I don't want to minimize his contributions, just find out exactly what they were and weren't. There is enough archival material left to be much more specific I feel than to make a series of actual architectural assumptions over something as vague as a magazine article stating that Colt said; "I was honored to have laid out Pine Valley."

[TEPaul]

Anyway, in the broad scheme of things if it's really true that Colt was only in America twice in 1911 and 1913 and Colt & Alison had all those courses in America that spanned to the late 1920s at the very least it seems necessary to research how they actually did work together. If they didn't really work together closely on all those later American projects then why is Colt's name on them--just because they were partners?

But even if that was so it doesn't say much for Colt's involvment anyway as he may not have even been here. So something is odd, unless of course Colt was a semi-mail-in architect, and I for one don't care how talented anyone is that is not a very impressive way to go if you're going to really take credit for the meat of a golf course.

I have no problem with Colt's courses or him at all, I would just love to know how he worked, where he was, and exactly what he did do. So far it seems very unusual.

[Paul Turner]

Tom P

Colt certainly wasn't a "semi-mail-in" architect.  Alison did "mail in" a few jobs for Australian courses and Colt criticised him for doing so.  It has never been claimed that Alison did this in the USA where he travelled extensively.

The USA courses built in the 1920s are Alison's.  From C&W "Nearly all the courses built by the firm of Colt and Alison during the 1920s and 1930s were designed by High Alison."  The standard was for the firm name to be used i.e.  County Sligo in Ireland is a Colt,Alison & Mackenzie design but in truth only Colt was involved.

The earlier US/Canadian courses are Colt's (marked solo in C&W).  I don't know how long he stayed during his two visits, but Mackenzie didn't stay long in Australia either and nobody seriously doubts his contribution. Probably the same for Alison in Japan. These guys just seemed to work very fast and very effectively.

[Richard_Goodale]

The speed and efficiency with which these guys worked raises a very good point, i.e. why are the modern guys so sluggish!

Does Bill Coore (or whoever) really need weeks or months to do a routing?  Or days on his hands and knees to identify some hardly recognisable "poofs" in the green approaches?

Just wondering.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
I haven't seen Finegan's book so I can't comment on his timeline. I'm sure he has been exposed to hell of a lot more info than I have. What little I know is based on articles written at the time or shortly after.  Based on those articles I stumbled across few interesting discoveries:

At the time of Colt's visit (6/1913) Crump had the first seven holes roughed out. The first and second are the same, the 3rd was par-3 of 185-200 yards to an 'Alpanized' green guarded by an 'elaborate variation of the Mid-surrey mounds.' The 4th is not described well, but I assume it is the same. The 5th was shortish par-3 over a creek. The sixth was a par-5 and the 7th was less developed. It involved a well placed drive over an 'enormous dip through which a flows a stream'. the second shot was a mashie (8-iron). The reamining holes were more or less in Crump's head, including the 18th a longish two shotter over a water hazard.

By December 1914 eleven holes were completed and the entire routing was solidified. The course was 6700 yards.
1, 4, 6, 9, 13, 16 and 18 were long par-4s.
2, 11, 12 and 17 were medium length par-4s.
7, 8, 14 and 15 required short approaches (par-4s and par-5s)
3, 10 and 5 were par-3s.
Tillinghast wrote "much has been written concerning the marvelously fine course, discovered by that celeabrated golf architect, Mr.H.S.Colt....a fortnight ago the writer had the pleasure of walking over the undeveloped seven holes, and in his opinion theyu are the greatest of any, and Mr.Crump agrees with me in this opinion."

By March 15, 1915 Crump has discovered the current 13th and 14th.

The last holes constructed were 12-15.

I have no idea if Colt and Crump communicated between his visit and Crumps death. One of Colt's most treasured possessions was book of phots of PVGC. Following Crumps death Colt sent Alison back to PVGC for further advice.

I wish I knew more.

On the subject of Colt and Alison, for the most part they worked seperately. The many courses in the US built between 1920-1929 are Alison's, as are the Japanese courses. Colt had an equally impressive list of accomplishement in the UK & Europe during the same period. And their styles were quite distinctive. One of the reason's Colt's attributions are fuzzier than other architects is because there are very few of his plans remaining. His biographer had never discovered a single plan. He claimed he made scale models early on, but mostly worked like Pete Dye rough plans and doing much of his design work in the field with experienced help. (Many of these architects produced buitiful plans as much to promte the project as anything, and I don't feel Colt felt the need to promote, in fact his lack or promotional skills may hve also contributed to his limited fame.) That is why the PV plans are so entruiging, they are rarities.

Alison on the other hand drew detailed plans.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW;

You seem to have PV's timelines fairly accurate there in general, but plenty of your chronological detail is not the way the course turned out.

The basic routing itself is close throughout in direction, although some of the holes were definitely reconfigured as to their par and length and design characteristics.

All that said though, although, the routing is close and even some pars and length, the detail on those holes, green design, particularly bunker placement and design and most significantly the  "island" landing areas are not close to Colt's detailed "hole drawings".

This would seem somewhat mysterious if it was Colt's routing and design, but the fact that Crump spent five more solid years there day in and day out would explain the reasons for so many descrepencies as to your post.

One of the little known or unknown facts about Pine Valley, it seems to me, is that few if any really know what an experimenter and tester Crump was. Much of what he built he considered "temporary" until he could improve it. He spent years on the course and of course he did not know he was going to die in 1918. He apparently had many plans that only those close to him really knew (Carr and Smith).

The "remembrances" and also Hugh Alison took care of a lot of Crump's eventual plans with the so-called 1921 Advisory Committee.

And the interesting thing is after the Advisory Committee finished there final recommendations and plans the golf course has virtually never changed. Evolution is another matter (trees) but architecturally the only significant thing ever done that really departed from the 1921 committee was Fazio's alternate #8 green. That didn't actually "change" any of PV's original architecture only added another alternate green to it. Even Maxwell's 1930 alterations were in accordance with the 1921 committee's recommendations.

[TEPaul]

If you're really wondering, Rich, time on site has no real alternative! Either the architect's, or people who know how to really interpret and create his ideas or wishes somehow. Failing that though, somebody else probably did it!

Things like you refer to as "poofs" may seem to be superfluous to you but things like that make golf courses.

You may not understand that now, but hopefully you will someday. I know you play them and understand that those little things sometimes make or break your rounds and separate a really interesting course from the others. Those little things may have been found or made, but they're all important and exactly how they came to be or be used is for all of us who like architecture to understand not to make light of.

Time on site though, somebody's time on site has no alternative, in my opinion, although it might in your opinon.

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom

I am a big fan and connoisseur of "poofs"--on the golf course, that is.  Quite frankly, I didn't need you or even Bill Coore to tell me what they were, or even explain their significance.  You can't have spent as much time as I have playing the great links of GBI without a sophisticated sensitivity and appreciation of these things.  What I was trying to get at, in my casual sarcastic way was the issue of how much time and effort is really needed to design a great golf course.  My experience as an observer of and participant in similar creative endeavors is that one can get 80-90% of the "problem" "right" in a very short period of time.  The key to greatness is getting that last 10-20%.  Some people (real geniuses) can do that very quickly too.  Most people, even the very talented ones, can spend a lifetime trying to get that last 5% "right" and never will.

With a golf course, which is an organic thing, is it EVER possible for one person, at one point in time, to get it ALL right?  I think not.  Today's "poof" might just be tomorrow's maintenance nightmare.  Tomorrow's blow out bunker may just have been yesterday's sand dune.  History''s simple greenside bunker might be yesterday's "white face."  I think there is a very good case for saying that too much time on site by the designer can be detrimental to the long term potential of any golf course, in that it may stifle the creativity of others with an interest in the course.

Change happens.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
I also got the impression the basic routing stayed pretty much the same with some minor exceptions. Tillinghast wrote that the first nine holes and the 18th and the tenth were pretty much set early on. Of course many of the individual holes were altered during the process. It appears that after Colt the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th were changed. And Thomas seems to give Colt some credit for #10. And it is known Crump found the 13th and 14th later on in the process.

I would love to see Colt's plans and also Crumps original plan, I'm a little disapointed that they were not included in Finegan's book. I don't know what to tell you about the islands of sand and the alck of them on Colt's drawing. From some of the old photos I've seen of PV, it would seem almost impossible not to have some island-like holes. It is interesting to compare the old photos of Colt's work in Europe and those of PVGC found in Colt's book 'Golf-Course Architecture' and in his biography - there are some similarities.

I've always had the impression Alison's role was more or less for maintenance recommendations - that he rebuilt some greens or fairways they were having trouble with. What exactly did he do?

[Paul Turner]

Tom P

Can you describe Crumps routing for us?  Is it a simple stick diagram or more detailed?  What are the differences from the final course?

As for time one site.  It's obviously extremely important but I think I agree with Rich, at a certain point you're just into diminishing returns and risk becoming too fussy with a design;  over complicating things with possibly too much detail.  (As Rich points out, it's the same for most artistic endeavours)

[SL_Solow]

Colt & Co. does a pretty good job of tracing Colt & Alison's travels.  Prior posts seem to have it right when they limit Colt's trips to the pre 1920 period and attribute the later courses to Alison.

[johnny B]

Paul,
Regarding Belvoir Park (I am a member there) and too many trees - yes and no. A lot of trees have been planted but it is a course made out of a forest (Belvoir Forest) and many of the very fine old trees are major features of the course. A lot have been planted but in the main they do not detract from Harry Colts work.  I was Chairman of Greens for 8 years during which I saw the light and realised the dangers as well as the benefits of trees.  I managed to get a few of the worst cut down (drawing some flack from the members - but I was sustained by the chapter from Tillinghast's book on "Chairman of Greens " - still makes me smile when I read it.  More trees need removed but there are really no new trees which detract from the design.  It really is a wonderful inland golf course,  and is generally regarded by people who know as the best inland course in Ireland, if a little short for todays technology (6450 yards).  
Regards,   Johnny Browne

[kwl]

guys,
please get the facts straight. the cc of detroit (ccd) is a colt and alison work, redone by the open doctor. lotta history. detroit golf club (dgc) is a couple of 18 hole courses (south won the danny devito award from brad klein-forget your notion of just a par sixty eight) by ross. the north has had its troubles with greens, but has been in good shape for the last few years. unfortunately, the north has been modified by a few folks (hills most recently).
as for the war zone, hyperbole and inaccuracy rules. i am a member and have heard the gossip, but never the one about the women's invitational. you are more likely to get whacked by an errant ball at plum hollow, despite the screens, than an errant projectile @ dgc.
the place is tranquil, no armed guards, occasional sounds of detroit symphony (sirens).

[ian]

Hamilton G&CC is a standout, and when the Canadian Open is played there it will finally receive its recognition. I also love Toronto Golf Club which was done at about the same time. Park Country Club is more subtle but good enough for a PGA (1934?). These are all within an hour and all worth playing.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

kwl
Actually CC of Detroit is not a Colt design, the original Colt course was completely redesigned in 1927 by Alison which was later remodeld by RTJ. But the basis of the course is Alison.

I like you was under the assumption Detroit GC was all Ross until I started looking into it and was very surprised to find Colt's name associated with the course. But the more I looked at the Colt/Ross connection the more it made sense.

[David Wigler]

kwl,

After Tom corrected you on your first statement, I will do so on your second.  Believe me, I like DGC.  It is one of my favorite courses.  Heck, I had lunch there yesterday.  Let us be realistic though, it is in a war zone.  That area of Detroit is an extremely high crime area at night.  The police station on your corner speaks to that.  Furthermore, your statement that there are not armed guards on the course is ludicrous.  What are the two armed guard stations built for?  Are you telling me that they have mannequins in them (Kind of like scarecrows)?  What about the guard who drives around the course in his golf cart.  Is he a motor powered mannequin?  I hope you stay on GCA, as we can always use new blood.  It is admirable that you are proud of your home course.  You need to realize though, that this is a forum of very well informed, well-traveled and well read golf fanatics.  

[Paul Turner]

Johnny

Thanks for the reply.  I'm intrigued by Belvoir Park, I guess you don't get that many tourists compared with the big money Irish inland developments like K Club, Druid's Glen and Mount Juliet. So maybe the course doesn't get its due recognition.

What would you say is the primary appeal of Belvoir Park?  Good undulating terrain?  The greens?  I bet it has a great set of par 3s, in true Colt style!  On a previous thread I read a thread that the course has fine original Colt bunkers.

Ian

Thanks for the response about Hamilton.  Would you say it's superior to Toronto?

Tom M

I've never read Colt's name connected to Garden City or Brookline.  Can you embellish?

There are a few possible sleepers designed by Colt in England.  Bracepeth Castle in Durham with it's ultra difficult 9th hole is one (it was voted into a World most difficult 18.)

And maybe also Tandridge in Surrey (particularly the back 9); I found this one hazy image which just hints at some good terrain (and a fine clubhouse!).

[kwl]

david wigler, please....if you are going to correct me please try to be accurate. in the 3 years that i have been at the detroit golf club, i have only once seen one of the "guards" in the little structures. it was during a rain storm. the guards simply roam the course on red carts (the members have beige). the guards have walkie talkies but not guns.

tom macwood, i just reread the centenial book (club started in 1899 and a book was created for the 100 year anniv) on the detroit golf club. no mention of colt or alison. as for saying that ccd is not a "colt and alison" design. you state that ccd was designed by colt. later modified by colt. later by rtj. i think later again by rees jones. let us not get caught up in trivial debates eliminating colt (see the golf course by cornish and whitten). like david, if you are going to correct one, please be correct or at least define your "rules".

finally, david. do not break your arm patting yourself on the back...as some self proclaimed expert along with the others that frequent this site. can you read my mind and library from where you are? how do we compare on the stanford-binet?

[David Wigler]

kwl,

Give me a break.  You hide behind a pseudonym and than get indignant when your facts are questioned.  Your research is reading your clubs Centennial book.  Wow, that is impressive.  Frankly, I did not know that Colt had anything to do with DGC and pointed that out to Tom.  Tom is a very diligent researcher though.  If he is certain that Colt did, then I tend to believe him.  

As for your explanation of guards, do you realize how inconsistent it is?  People all over the world read this site.  Most have never been to DGC.  In your first post, you state, "As for the war zone, hyperbole and inaccuracy rules...the place is tranquil, no armed guards, occasional sounds of Detroit symphony (sirens). "  Now you admit to the guard shacks that exist on the course but say they are unmanned and you admit to the guards but say they are unarmed.  Would a tranquil club in a safe area need guard shacks on the course and guards constantly patrolling it in golf carts?  Do you feel your two descriptions are consistent?

DGC is the only world-class course I have ever seen that has guard shacks on the property and guards patrolling.  For what it is worth, I have never played the course and not seen a guard in the shack off #3 (Probably 6 times).  I will admit that I have seen their gun holsters but they certainly could be filled with walkie-talkies and not guns.  You have a beautiful golf course but it is in a war zone, it does have guards on it, and it might have had Colt involved in it.  It is that simple.

As for the Stanford-Binet, I have no idea how we would compare, although I would be willing to guess.  I find it interesting though, that you would choose a French origin test that was designed to be a measuring stick for comparison of White Males and is generally considered an extremely outdated method of rating intelligence quotient.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

kwl
I'm not interested in getting into trivial debates either, my only interest is in sharing what I have discovered. If you choose to disregard it - that's fine.

Colt and Alison were partners, but Colt was not Alison and Alison was not Colt - there designs are not interchangable. Colt was in N.America in 1911 and 1913. Alison first came over in a design capacity in 1920 and produced designs
straight through to the Depression. (Alison had an office in Detroit.)

I don't believe I said that CCofD was not a Colt & Alison design, I was only trying to pinpoint who deserved the most credit, Alison. And I'm sure there have been a number of architects that have touched his design over the years. CCofD's history is complicated because both Colt and Alison were involved in designing the course at different times - first Colt in 1911 and then Alison with full blown redesign in 1927.

With all due respect to Cornish and Whitten, they do not give Alison (or Colt for that matter) credit for Plum Hollow either - the course that started this thread. I think they would be the first to admit that finding attribution is an on going process. If you would like to give my e-mail address to the author of your club history, I will be glad to share the information that I have uncovered. Or perhaps you perform your own independent research.

Paul
I'm not sure what Colt did at Brookline and Garden City - only that he listed both under courses he designed or redesigned (obviously redesigned in this case). Some day I hope to find out.

[Dan Eulitt (Guest)]

Davenport CC in Davenport Iowa.. belive it is a Colt /Allison design. Nice track but due to flooding issues several of the last holes have been rebuilt to allow for the floods. Holes were rebuilt with the same style and done well. Correct me if I am wrong.

[David Wigler]

I completed a first pass of research on Plum Hollow.  It appears that Allison did the original plans in 1920.  T.A. Varn Hagen constructed the course.  Varn Hagen had come from Oakmont, where he had been the "Greenskeeper."  The plans that Allison had drawn and Varn Hagen executed upon where for a nine-hole golf course.  It was expanded two years later by Varn Hagen to 18 holes.  It seems that there were major changes almost immediately due to the ravines and drainage.  I have not found any evidence of Reid and Connelan's work but my instinct is that Varn Hagen was more of a Shaper and field supervisor than an Architect.  Given the major changes the course went through early in its existence, it would seem logical that either Allison or Reid was called in to do some rerouting and drawing of new holes.  Oh, but to get my hands on some of the original drawings.  Then I could solve the mystery.

[TEPaul]

Again, I would very much like to see two things pinned down and better documented regarding Colt and Alison.

The first is if it really is true that Colt was only in America twice--once in 1911 and once in 1913. And the second thing is what exactly was their working relationship on courses that are Colt and Alison designs if one but not the other was at a particular site. In other words, did they collaborate in any way?

I would particularly like to know that because of the situation at Pine Valley. Colt was there very early (in the very beginning) and Alison was there at the very end but neither was there together.

No one seems to know why Crump called Colt to Pine Valley in the beginning and no one seems to know either why the 1921 Advisory Committee hired Alison (and not Colt) in the end!

Actually, belay for the moment why Alison showed up at Pine Valley and ended up producing a very comprehensive hole by hole recommendation report. There is a handwritten notation on a letter from William Fownes to Alan Wilson by Wilson (don't know who the notation is to but probably someone else on the 1921 Advisory Committee) mentioning that he (Alan Wilson) will come down to Pine Valley Sat, March 12th with Alison.

I suppose that means that Alison was in Philadelphia doing something else. It could be too that he'd already produced his recommendation report for Pine Valley.  But Alison must have been doing something else in Philadephia with Alan Wilson and logically it would seem that it might be at Merion!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
I don't know how much they collaborated when Alison was in the US and Colt was in the UK. Based on their distinctive styles I'd guess not much. In 1921 the firm was Colt, MacKenzie and Alison and they were all fairly experienced and independent. Colt was the boss but he no doubt had confindence in all their abilities.

I don't know if Alison was with Colt when he visited PVGC in 1913. Alison first came to the US in 1903 with the Oxford-Cambridge team and actually competed against Tillinghast. But after WWI Colt traveled very little, Alison seemed to have that responsiblity. So it is not surprising he would send Alison to PV, especially since he was already in the US.

I suspect that the choice of Colt can be traced to Horace Huchinson. He had a great influence on Macdonald, and most likely on Crump and Wilson. When Hutchinson visited the States and Macdonald in 1910 he toured Canada, Boston and the NY area. When Colt came to N.America to perform his work he hit everyone of those spots - Toronto, Montreal, Boston and Long Island. Macdonald and Hutchinson also visited Essex County and that same year Ross made his own tour of the great courses of the UK. And when Colt came to the US he was assisted by Donald Ross.

I don't know if Alison or Colt did anything at Merion, but I do know Alison did some work at Philadelphia CC.

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