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Joe Bausch

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Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« on: December 29, 2009, 09:16:43 PM »
Yes, that is basically the provocative title from a July, 1915 article from the Evening Ledger shown below.  But to me what is much more interesting are two very different paragraphs from the article.

1.  Even as late as the summer of 1915, Merion has limited bunkers.

2.  The wicker baskets are discussed.



« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 01:26:24 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 12:10:16 PM »
Hard to believe this article has received no replies yet, so perhaps it needs a more provocative title!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom_Doak

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 12:22:32 PM »
Everyone is afraid to open up a thread with the word "Merion" in the title.  These threads are like "Halloween" movies.  ;)

But, it's fascinating to hear that they really waited that long to build most of the bunkers.  You couldn't justify it today, because it's so much more costly to add bunkers after construction, to work around irrigation systems, etc.  What this really goes to show is how primitive Merion was in 1915.

Regarding the wicker baskets, it is interesting to see that Flynn is credited.  I always thought Hugh Wilson must have seen some similar form on his tour of Scotland and England ... in very old pictures of the British links it is not uncommon to see the holes marked with a large metal pole with various adornments on top, right down to the sort of markers you would find on a practice putting green today ... something besides the standard flag.  But I'm not sure if Flynn ever visited the UK.

JohnV

Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 12:37:59 PM »
The other interesting thing about the baskets, is I've always read that they were used to prevent players from getting information about which way the wind was blowing, but this article implies that that they were really used to make the holes more visible form a distance.  I'm sure some Luddites here will think that this made it too easy for the golfers. ;)

Joe Bausch

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 12:47:28 PM »
And the wicker baskets back in 1915 were different colors (at least the back nine) than currently.

Regarding the bunkering:  there are people that believe some MacDonald template holes were there originally (and probably still feel that way!).  Aren't many of his template holes really defined by bunkering? 

George Bahto:  please pick up the white courtesy phone.   ;) :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2009, 07:35:26 PM »
Aren't many of his template holes really defined by bunkering? 


Hmm. That's a good question.

I'd be in the fairly categorical "NO" camp. Maybe just the Alps, Raynor Prize Dogleg and Eden. I think one could build a Redan, Biarritz, Punchbowl, and even Short without bunkers but with plenty of creativity. Bunkers were just the chosen hazard.

I'd say most are more defined by the type of shot or shots required to overcome the contours presented on the ground. The bunkering or other hazards simply negate areas of play and emphasize those shots.

Chris Cupit

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2009, 09:08:39 PM »
The other interesting thing about the baskets, is I've always read that they were used to prevent players from getting information about which way the wind was blowing, but this article implies that that they were really used to make the holes more visible form a distance.  I'm sure some Luddites here will think that this made it too easy for the golfers. ;)

Big John,

My limited research pointed out the same fact.  I have an old Stumpf's (?)catalogue that advertised "wicker balloon baskets" for $7.50 each.  The advertisement made the point that for inland courses where the wind was often absent, the "balloons" were much more visible than the limp flag and pole.  I saw nothing about "hiding the wind direction" as a selling point.

Hope all is well in California.  See you in NY in 2010.

JC Jones

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2009, 09:09:00 PM »
  But I'm not sure if Flynn ever visited the UK.

I think this is intentionally incendiary to get Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison back ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Chris Cupit

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2009, 09:14:02 PM »
Hmmmmm.  I just noticed near the end of the article I must have had a long lost relative from whom I have inherited much :D

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2009, 09:15:09 PM »
Doesn't this kinda confirm the idea that the course was laid out simply and, through the following years, the additional features were added?

Joe - once again, great find... 

Michael Blake

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2009, 09:37:58 PM »
Didn't Flynn sometimes wait to add certain bunkers to his courses until he inspected where most of the divots were?  Is this an early example of that?  Did he learn it from Wilson?  Or is this something completely different?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2009, 09:44:28 PM »
Similar to Seaview with respect to adding bunkers after opening.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2009, 09:52:48 PM »
 As far as I know Flynn never went to the British Isles. I recall Wayne calling him a truly American architect because of that. I also believe Wayne posted that Flynn may had gotten a patent on the baskets.
AKA Mayday

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2009, 10:08:21 PM »
If anyone has the Walker Cup program and a scanner, please copy and scan pages 60&61 for the article "The Origins of Merion's Wicker Baskets" by Wayne Morrison and Steve Ryan. It would be appreciated so that it can be posted here.

I have the program but do not have my scanner.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2009, 10:12:29 PM »
According to the article, Flynn does hold a patent granted in 1916, the same year that ads by Flynn & Peters appeared for the baskets in American Golfer.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

George_Bahto

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2009, 11:22:19 PM »

Regarding the bunkering:  there are people that believe some MacDonald template holes were there originally (and probably still feel that way!).  Aren't many of his template holes really defined by bunkering? 

George Bahto:  please pick up the white courtesy phone.   ;) :)
[/quote]

not necessarily fairway bunker - greenside bunkering, yes, joe   ...... (in the case of Old Macdonald, Doak/Urbina - neither - hah)
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Sean_Tully

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2009, 11:32:56 PM »
here you go

courtesy of google

Tully



« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 11:35:33 PM by Sean_Tully »

Dale Jackson

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2009, 11:39:07 PM »
This is not the first time I have heard mention of an early course being built and the bunkering put in later.  I know AV Macan did this on many of his courses.

Was this a common practice back in the day?
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2009, 11:47:31 PM »
I think one could build a Redan, Biarritz, Punchbowl, and even Short without bunkers but with plenty of creativity.

Kyle -- that would make an interesting thread to examine further, particularly the idea of a bunkerless Redan and Short.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Adam Clayman

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2009, 01:14:20 AM »
Joe,

Imagine playing Merion, where the entire canvas is really firm with nothing to stop balls from just rolling and rolling, to their unpredictable ultimate conclusion. I'll tell you want it would define, the best golfer would be the one who could predict the proper golf shot, rather than just the proper yardage for their aerial shot.

After writing that and hearing about this, I now see where Mike Cirba had a problem with the fronting bunkers on the fifth hole(?)  

« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 01:52:25 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jim Nugent

Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2009, 04:25:57 AM »
This may be another way of asking what Joe already asked.  Did CBM ever design any courses that way, i.e. with almost none of the bunkers in place? 

Sean_A

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2009, 05:18:41 AM »
Joe,

Imagine playing Merion, where the entire canvas is really firm with nothing to stop balls from just rolling and rolling, to their unpredictable ultimate conclusion. I'll tell you want it would define, the best golfer would be the one who could predict the proper golf shot, rather than just the proper yardage for their aerial shot.

After writing that and hearing about this, I now see where Mike Cirba had a problem with the fronting bunkers on the fifth hole(?)  



Adam

The fronting bunkers on the 5th are weird because they are just beyond the stream.  They don't seem to have any purpose if the stream is truly a hazard. 

I am not convinced you can build these templates without the bunkers unless of course the idea is merely "inspiration" or "on a theme".  The bunkers on the par 3s are critical elements of the designs.

Ciao

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Niall C

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2009, 06:07:17 AM »
This is not the first time I have heard mention of an early course being built and the bunkering put in later.  I know AV Macan did this on many of his courses.

Was this a common practice back in the day?

Dale

I believe so, certainly in Scotland. Although I can't really say about the US I imagine it would be similiar.

Niall

Tom MacWood

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2009, 06:53:28 AM »
Does the article claim the golf course is bunkerless or the golf course has relatively few bunkers in comparison to Apawamis, Garden City, Baltusrol, Ekwanock, etc?

The author gives the impression there is only one golf course at Merion, but I believe Merion had two golf courses in 1915. When the article says Travers played 36 holes a day was that over the East course or over the East and West courses? The West course was very sparsely bunkered, and still has relatively few bunkers to this day.

The most important feature of the Redan and Biarritz is the configuration of the green. The most important features of the Road and Alps holes is the road and the hill.

Did Sunningdale have wicker basket pins prior to 1915?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Now: Merion virtually bunkerless THREE YEARS after opening!?
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2009, 07:48:36 AM »

The author gives the impression there is only one golf course at Merion, but I believe Merion had two golf courses in 1915. When the article says Travers played 36 holes a day was that over the East course or over the East and West courses? The West course was very sparsely bunkered, and still has relatively few bunkers to this day.


I'm very confident that the 36 holes played (twice over two days) were all at the East course, but I'm not certain.  Travers was in town for the Lynnewood Cup tourney at Huntingdon Valley, then was convinced to come over to the Harold Sands Invitational at Merion.  This Joe Bunker article from June 25, 1915 talks about both tourneys.  And the part about Merion is almost certainly talking about the East course.  Another article I have from the Inky also strongly suggests this Sands tourney was held exclusively at the East course.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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