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TEPaul

Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciting?
« on: April 15, 2002, 04:01:57 AM »
I can't see that anyone really thought this year's Masters was an exciting tournament competitively. Some even think it was one of the most boring in memory or one of the oddest general collapses of competitors in contention.

Tiger Woods appeared to have won the tournament on Sunday on the front nine this year (instead of the traditional "the tournament doesn't really begin until the final nine on Sunday") and appeared to cruise to a comfortable win on the back nine with a one over par fairly "defensive" final nine as all of his challengers either held their positions around par or collapsed on the incoming nine.

Does the Masters need to have low scoring to be an exciting tournament? Does the Masters need nearly a photo finish to be exciting? Does the Masters need to create a situation where the pros of today need to hit longer irons into some of the par 4s & par 5s? And finally does it need to really test their tee shots and particularly their driver more than it ever has?

I don't know but it certainly appears to have done the final two this year. It kept the scoring down in a week where scoring should have been low at that level, and my sense is if the course had played firmer and faster the scores would have been higher! The Masters didn't have an exciting heroically successful/near miss disaster filled final nine it has in the past either but that's as much chance as anything else. No tournament, no matter what it is or the course is can order up something like Nicklaus in '86 either, that's for sure. Something like that is just one of those rare things that any tournament occassionaly produces for the ages, obviously just by chance!

I've never known a Masters either where someone in contention doesn't make some outlandish mistake somewhere along the line, and generally on those known holes of the back nine.

It's interesting to hear the pros who were in contention or those that played the tournament fairly well analyze the course too, particularly McGinley, Goosen, Mickelson, Els and Woods! I don't think anyone really needed to interview V.J. Singh!

All of them seemed to agree the "new" Augusta tested their games well overall and particularly tested their driving and their drivers far more than the course ever had.

I've never really analyzed those greens at ANGC as closely as I did this year either. They are really something in a very unique way--their interesting orientations, shapes and particularly their mind-bending internal contours (with their speeds)! They are really something to look at too, just sitting there surrounded by seas of short grass and "nothing looking" super clean and immaculately maintained greenside bunkering!

Certainly the two central gambling par 5s totally misfired this year for any kind of "heroic" drama.

So, I don't know, maybe the course and its individual holes are a better overall test now for these tour pros against par! That certainly seemed true of those "make of break" holes that are scattered across ANGC's famous back nine that in the last few years the long hitters were using lofted irons into!

Maybe the Masters just needs low scoring to be interesting, at least from somebody, particularly on that potentially drama inducing back nine! It sure didn't get it this year!

Maybe, I'm wrong, but I thought I noticed this year that all the competitors, even including Tiger Woods looked unusually worn out by the end--much more so than I can remember.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Tom

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2002, 04:37:10 AM »
TE

Not sure whether it needs low scoring - I personally think it just needs someone to stand up to Woods.

I am personally amazed that 5 of the top seven players in the world who were chasing Woods yesterday did not manage to break 71 in the final round and failed to put him under any pressure whatsoever.

It wasn't even a perfect round by him so that they didn't get a glimpse - he dropped shots on both nines!!!

I haven't given much credence to comparisons between the generations in the past but I do think that Palmer, Watson, Trevino, Miller, Weiskopf, Player would have put up a better showing against the best player of their generation in similar circumstances.

Hope you are well

Tom
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2002, 04:38:07 AM »
Tom:

Great analysis.

I was really excited going into Sunday's final round just
looking at the leaderboard.  Great names everywhere!

Feherty's comment about the "train wreck" hit the nail on
the head.  Sunday was so disappointing because no one
would challenge Tiger.  Instead of a shootout, we got a
real dud.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2002, 04:38:13 AM »
Another thing I guess I wanted to say about this year's Masters or maybe some of the last few years on Golfclubatlas that will obviously piss off some of my fellow contributors.

This year's back nine was clearly a curious general collapse by an unusual number of players. No one but a single distant starter shot a single round under 70. Was that the "new" course? Was that the players Woods is competing against in his career that many of you accuse of having no backbone or being totally insane course managers (Mickelson)? Or maybe something else?

Those guys are very good but if you for some reason think they are so good they don't make mistakes at some point then I've got to say some of you think they are even better than they really are or probably ever have been or will be! Everybody makes mistakes--it's just a matter of when and where and probably a good dose of just good old luck too!  

Woods is undeniably a great player, in my opinion, shot for shot, tournament for tournament (given the depth of talent today) the greatest player ever. There has to be an intimidation factor that abets his performances too, but there seems to be something else to the young man that I've been seeing a little or even a lot too much of ever since his Amateur win at the TPC against Kuehne.

It almost seems never ending! He either just blows the field away, or seizes the perfect moment for the unexpected shot to turn things his way or if he struggles himself (for his potential) and just when it appears his fellow competitors have the chance to beat him there is some bad Karma that seems to effect anyone with a chance to do that.

I recognize a truly great player when I see one, as we all do, but that apparent "bad Karma" is beginning to really get my attention. I don't think those competitors of Woods's lack backbone or the desire and abilitly to win, as some say. But Woods's career so far is unbelievably impressive and not just a little strange!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2002, 04:54:19 AM »
Paul

Put it this way - I went to bed once Tiger got through Amen Corner because I figured the only way it was going to get exciting was if he went "aqua" !!!

TE

I would not accuse them of lack of backbone or being chokers - they are great players but seem unwilling to stand toe to toe with him.  

Maybe it is Karma - do you remember the strange atmosphere at St Andrews in 2000 when it was over by the turn - very subdued mood amongst the spectators as if they were witnessing something relentless and unstoppable but not anything they could personally relate to !!!  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2002, 05:30:32 AM »
Other than Tiger, the big story was Adam Scott - equal 9th on debut. This is the guy I look to (more than anyone in world golf) to serve it up to Woods over the next 15 years. It has nothing to do with him being Australian; just that he carries no baggage, no scarring, shares the same coach, swings eerrily similarly, has almost as much power, and is equally modest for one so talented.

Over the last 3 years - by his own admission - Scott has possesed the world's worst short game. It has now progressed to be just fair, a smidgeon over rank bad, and if he keeps improving this aspect, it could get very interesting at the top.

Forget Wood's distance card, he is the best within 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, and 10 metres of the needle. When he's off, it makes no difference; other than eliminating 62-65s.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2002, 05:35:42 AM »
I think I might be able to shed some light on the general collapse yesterday at the Masters and generally speaking in golf today and why Woods won AGAIN the way he did. Unfortunately this does not have anything to do with golf architecture or golf either, for that matter.

Basically, what we are witnessing is biblical. Earl, himself, has  seen the light occasionally from his barkalounger through his haze of cigarette smoke, although he does not actually realize that he was put on Earth solely as the Imperfect conduit for the Second Coming!

The general collapse yesterday amongst South Africans, Spanish, English and other European players, including a contingent of Americans really is "bad Karma" that has nothing to do with their true golfing ability, their competitiveness or their backbones!

The Wages of Sin have been sown and the debt has come due, my friends! These players are paying for the sins of their fathers without understanding it or the capacity to do a thing about it.

Even the cradle of our biblical civilization, the birthplace of the Son of our Father is about to explode into oblivion.

Think about it! Woods is Asian, Black, American Indian and that would explain the extraordinary events in Mickelson's career this year and in the past--with no major and Duval's curious disappearance. The Sins of American Fathers with Custer, a culture built on slavery and the Domino Theory induced miscues in the Far East. The South Africans' collapse is a no-brainer and Olazabal's forebearers were cruel Colonialists. The English, Irish and Scots? Ha, not a chance of success with the convoluted Imperialist history or their forefathers.

I've not yet gotten a complete take on Singh's amazingly poor shot-making but I sense it has something to do with too many generations in the Garden of Eden of Fiji, with maybe a bit too much free love!

The only one unaffected by "bad Karma" yesterday was Mariyama and would indicate the Second Coming of the Son of the Supreme Being has actually risen out of the Far East--the homeland of Tilda Woods.

Don't lose hope though, my friends! The Second Son is home this morning in Islesworth in Orlando, Florida, the US of A. with his beautiful blonde Swedish girlfriend, Elin Nordegan, and all things will be right with the World again some day!

But as for Wood's fellow competitors? Forget it--they will never have a chance no matter how much they practice, see sports psychologists or workout!

As for the roll of Hootie and Augusta National. That's another story for another time!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2002, 05:54:25 AM »
PaulD:

Adam Scott's impressive rookie performance has everything to do with being Australian, in fact.

Beautiful Australia was founded as a penal colony by those cruel and evil UK Imperialist forefathers of some of those foreign competitors that collapsed yesterday in Augusta.

In a biblical sense (or any other sense) there is not much better than redemption and that would explain Scott's performance for all that those cruel Europeans did to Adam's forebearers!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2002, 05:56:48 AM »
TE Paul:

Brilliant analysis - get yourself into Butler's Cabin next year and instigate a new look presentation ceremony!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2002, 06:06:03 AM »
How could I be so obtuse? I suppose it's perfectly possible that V.J Singh might be a Muslim! Does anyone know? If so that would completely explain his 9 on #15!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2002, 06:17:23 AM »
Tom:

Did Trevino, Miller or Weiskopf ever win a Masters?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2002, 06:24:12 AM »
No they didn't agreed - but they did relish taking Nicklaus on and occasionally beating him.  Not sure I can say the same for those in the final groups yesterday !!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2002, 06:41:30 AM »
What the Masters needs to be exciting is excitement - and you can quote me on that!

How did it once (a seemingly long while ago) achieve that drama/excitement? By the huge ebb and flows of emotions that accompany eagles and herioc shots and gallant failures.

As Pete Dye once remarked, the key is to get inside the player's mind - once they start thinking, they're in trouble.

The best example ever? Seve's clunker of a 5 iron into the pond at the 15th in 1986 - my contention is that what was required for that shot to transpire was heriocs ahead of him(and heriocs isn't defined as a two birdie/16 par grind'em out round on Sunday, which coincidentally is all that Goosen had to do in mathematical hindsight).

Bold, attacking golf should be encouraged, not stiffled, and MacKenzie said as much over 70 years ago! It is both sad and ironic that ANGC isn't listening.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

Tom

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2002, 06:45:46 AM »
Ran

Couldn't agree more - have we seen the last of the last round 64s / 65s to win by a shot at Augusta?

After yesterday it seems a long way away !!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2002, 06:50:45 AM »
Tepaul- Its a little theory of mine that because of the USA's existance, homosapiens finally have the ability to mix DNA and unlock a secret chromosome code which will lead to the superior human.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2002, 08:02:30 AM »
A clay man:

I'm not buying your theory although I don't deny technically it might be true and might even be because of the USA's existence. I'm telling you that no DNA, test tubes or chromosomes are going to produce another Second Son,  another Tiger Woods. We're talking biblical here not scientific.

You're probably right that a USA lab can ultimately produce some super human who can drive the ball 75 yds past Tiger and can hit higher and longer cuts out of bunkers to tucked right pins boarded by lakes on 72nd holes. The USA might unlock some secret chromosome to produce athletes to do all that but they will never compete with Earl and Tilda's boy and beat him! These new lab products might be super human but they're not going to be or beat the Son of the new Easter Supreme Being.

These guys today are very good golfers even though Golfclubatlas thinks they're spineless whimps with cotton candy between their ears. They are not that, I'm telling you.

They're trying their asses off and doing all they can. They're not really even that intimidated by Tiger either--not yet anyway. If he can't beat them by hitting endlessly perfect shots that some think he should be able to do without exception for the rest of his life he puts "bad Karma" on them! You saw it first hand yesterday. Basically you've been seeing it for the last ten years but for some reason have not actually realized what you've been watching or at least not the meaning of it.

Go ahead and throw some secret DNA chromosome babies at him and I guarantee that won't work either. He will either beat them on his own or he will throw some of this occasional biblical "bad Karma" on them and cause them to hit a drive 437yds off line at just the wrong moment!

There is no doubt in my mind that we are watching the Second Coming here. I don't know whether it will be interesting or boring to watch for the next 25 years either. What's interesting to me now is to see what the Second Son and this Elin Nordegan might produce. I look at her and think maybe they've had one of those secret DNA/chromose labs up in Sweden that the golfing world has not known about or she was God's finest hour not long before he passed the baton over to this new Eastern Supreme Being (who is Tiger's true father).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2002, 08:06:38 AM »
Shivas:

I agree with you completely! Simple yes and no answers are always the best and certainly the most accurate.

Seriously, good point!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2002, 08:31:01 AM »
Tommy Paul,

Interesting, I too, have thought about Tigers' effect on his fellow competitors and the seemingly endless stream of critical mistakes his opponents make when going head to head with him. His mental toughness is no accident, nor his strong karma.

Tigers' mother insisted that her son be exposed to her Thai culture and Buddism. She saw to it that he was instucted by Buddist monks and learned how to meditate as a very young boy. That training,coupled with the racial bias he was subjected too while competing as a junior has made him the ultimate mental foe in sport. He has the ability to harness his spiritual strength and couple it with his awesome physical talents at precisely the moments the competition dictates that he do so. He has won six out of the last seven majors, that takes other- worldly will, transcending the physical ability to hit golf shots.

I have personally witnessed the effects of "Karma", intuition,shear will, call it what you whatever you want, that defies logic and reasonable explanation in the most horrendous and perilous circumstances. I have no doubt about the power of the mind and spirit influencing the physical world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2002, 08:48:00 AM »
Tom Paul,
The course doesn't need low scoring, just to be vulnerable at key times. The goal of the big egos in Augusta seems to be elimination of vulnerability throughout, all so they can feel good about themselves. Shallow narcissism at its finest. The classic USGA course setup syndrome imported to Augusta, so sad when Jones and Roberts were so emphatic about not setting up that kind of course. I'm assuming former USGA President and now Masters committeeman Will Nicholson deserves as much blame as Hootie.

Still, no one has mentioned that the new 18 hole TV coverage didn't help matters. It used to be they came on Sunday, and boom, things just took off from there. The earlier coverage made it even more dull. I left after Tiger hit his tee shot on 12, it was clear things were not going to get interesting, and probably won't in Augusta for years to come.
G
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2002, 08:54:27 AM »
TEPaul:

I would hazard a guess that with a name like Singh, VJ is a Sikh.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2002, 09:00:35 AM »
Geoff,

I didn't see classic US Open course setup imported to Augusta...deep rough along the fairways, 28 yard wide fairways.  I saw the ball everytime it missed the fairway and every player I saw in the rough made an attempt for the green (except on 13 and 15 and would they have been in a position to go for it if it was short cut).

The greens weren't surrounded by gack... never saw anyone hack it out of greenside rough with a lob wedge...didn't see any greenside rough covering the players shoes...which is typical US Open conditions.

It looked more like a member/guest setup with (slow) glass for greens.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2002, 09:26:03 AM »
Tony Ristola:

I don't believe Geoff Shackelford means that overnight the Masters will become exactly like the US Open.  Rather, the Augusta brass is slowly moving in that direction.

I don't know how far they will go, but the direction is wrong in the first place.  The majors should be as different as we can make them.  Slowly blurring the distinctions will not make these events better or more interesting.  We will get bored with them all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2002, 09:40:52 AM »
I believe Geoff dislikes these changes as they stand...today.
  
I doubt the ANGC would setup a course using the USGA critereon.  If they do then they do deserve the divine hammer, but I saw no rough around the greens...did you?  Didn't see anyone pitch out sideways due to cabbage for rough...did you?  Augusta's setup was like Pinehurst's for the National Championship...a departure for the USGA which had everyone smiling.  

The direction which is wrong and got the club to act is the USGA's direction or lack of it...they are failing...(have failed?)the game.  

The changes are drastic, but so have those done before...moving 10 green, 11 green, and redoing the 16th.  The 8th was butchered and restored.  

Augusta is still distinct, but a little different to reflect the times and the lack of involvment by the USGA in defending the game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2002, 10:15:59 AM »
Tim Weiman:

I'm beginning to come around more and more that the majors should be as different from one another as possible--a really good variety or spectrum of "tests" for all the players, as you mentioned some time ago!

I feel that "difference" in architecture overall is ultimately a good thing too--and maybe the more the better!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does the Masters need low scoring to be exciti
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2002, 10:20:45 AM »
TEPaul:

The you would support the TPC overtaking the PGA as the 4th major.  Aren't the PGA and US Open clones?  Different courses, same setups, similar weather.  Time to get rid of the PGA?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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