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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2010, 11:17:29 AM »

The man who wrote the most recent history of Pine Valley??

Do you even know the man's name?  Yes I do. We've discussed him and his PV history many times on this site, and I've mentioned speaking to him more than once too.

He is a very fine friend of mine and like that Merchantville township manager you duped (who has stated that if you come to Merchantville, New Jersey he has a good mind to sue you) I have a good mind to just call the most recent history writer of PV's history and ask him if you did speak to him and what HIS OPINION is of what you two spoke about. When you spoke to him did you even bother to mention you were intending to write an article about Crump explaining he committed suicide or did you just conveniently avoid that as you did with that township manager?  Yes I did tell him I was writing an essay (I wonder if he's read it). In fact one of the questions I asked him was about Crump's educational background, I asked if he attended college or not. He said he didn't think so, but went on to say I shouldn't write about that. If you will remember I wasn't planning on writing an essay when I spoke to the fellow in Merchantville, which was a good 2 years before talking JF. It was only after you & Wayne brow beat the poor fellow that I decided to write the essay. I have thanked you before for being indirectly responsible, and I thank you again. I'm surprised you haven't spoken to JF before about this, its not as if I kept my call to him a secret. I have his phone number if you need it.


You're a sham; I think you know it and I think you know I know it and by now I think most on here know it and I think you know that too, at this point. The final question is do you really want everyone to know it too?  ;)

Do I want everyone to know I'm a sham? I don't believe I am a sham so the question is not really relevant.


And finally, it seems you aren't even aware what I have written on historical GCA subjects. Perhaps the reason for that is unlike what you've done, most of what I've written were not done for GOLFCLUBATLAS.com but rather for more main-stream exposure.  ;)

Mike Cirba

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2010, 12:26:32 PM »
My eyes are bleeding....please stop.

Better yet, let's find some more historical info on Seaview if we can.

I'll start.

Here's legendary J. Wood Platt putting on one of those wild greens conceived by Will Robinson & Hugh Wilson.   By the way, Platt won the first tournament ever played at Cobb's Creek in August 1916 at the age of 17.



Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2010, 09:10:39 PM »
Mike,

  Is the hole # given in the article?  Just curious. For some reason it reminds me of #12, or whatever the hole most north on the property is with the "snake" bunker on the right side. 

  I played Pines this past Saturday.  Not a lot of discussion here.  I have some pics but haven't gone through them yet; many very, very good Flynn holes, some average to below average Flynn holes (#1); 2 good Gordon holes (5,9), and 3 (6-7-8) atrocious holes. 

  Wandering around the lower level of the clubhouse, nearer to the pro shop than the locker room, I saw a few Gordon prints or reprints of holes, but no mention of Flynn, which is a shame.  The scorecard for the Pines lists Flynn/Toomey (they're literally only half right). It would have been interesting to see Flynn drawings of his nine holes displayed the same as the Ross drawings, and, because folks may know a little more about him now, or could tie in with his work with Phila. courses like Philadelphia CC, HV, RG, Manuf. CC, Philmont  ;) (NOT), Woodcrest, and Lancaster, and notable national courses such as Shinnecock Hills, it may actually be good marketing for the resort-more may be wanting to play Pines and see his work. 

  I did note, many of the bunkers were in poor shape, many had stones in them, and I knowingly violated the rules by removing stones the size of a peach pit around my ball.  (But, I didn't post a score-TEP, check your PMs, please). 
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2010, 11:29:44 PM »
"Yes I did tell him I was writing an essay (I wonder if he's read it). In fact one of the questions I asked him was about Crump's educational background, I asked if he attended college or not. He said he didn't think so, but went on to say I shouldn't write about that."



Tom MacWood:

He told you he didn't think you should write about Crump's educational background? Do you remember what he did tell you he thought you should write about? You didn't mention a thing to him about researching and writing about Crump's suicide did you? And why was that?

The reason I know that is I remember how surprised he was when I told him that was what you were going to write about or did write about.




"If you will remember I wasn't planning on writing an essay when I spoke to the fellow in Merchantville, which was a good 2 years before talking JF. It was only after you & Wayne brow beat the poor fellow that I decided to write the essay. I have thanked you before for being indirectly responsible, and I thank you again. I'm surprised you haven't spoken to JF before about this, its not as if I kept my call to him a secret. I have his phone number if you need it."


No, I don't remember that you weren't planning on writing an essay when you spoke to the Merchantville township manager about Crump's suicide. I never actually knew when you spoke to him anyway. What I remember is you were putting posts on GOLFCLUBALTAS.com alluding to the fact you could prove Crump committed suicide (I'm quite sure those threads are still on this website to confirm that fact).

That was when Wayne and I began asking you how you could prove that. Of course you were evasive as always and you just continued to claim on this website you could prove it. That's when I called you on the phone about it and that's when you actually told me (more like began bragging to me) you basically conned that information out of that Mercchantville township manager by talking to him first about other things such as building architecture which you claimed he liked. And you even mentioned to me on that phone call that that was why you are a better researcher than us etc-----eg supposedly in your mind because you basically conned information you were after out of a man without even mentioning the purpose of why you were calling him in the first place.

And then you have the audacity to tell us we brow beat that Merchantville township manager!? We did nothing of the kind. We simply called him up and asked him if he realized that a person who had called him was intending to write an article about Crump's suicide on information that he claimed he had gotten from him. That's when he told me if you ever showed up in Merchantville he would sue you.

Of course you never mentioned where or from whom you got that information except apparently to me in that phone call which really does make one wonder why you bragged about it to me when it was pretty clear I never thought you should pursue that subject or at least not without informing Pine Valley about it first.

We were the ones who mentioned on here where you unethically got that information and we mentioned it before you put that article on here. But I supposed somewhere in your warped, jaded and highly unethical mind you figured if you didn't mention where you got that information that it was just fine to get it from that Merchantville township manager that way without even telling him what you were really after in the first place. So when it came out you just blamed Wayne and I for your own unethical behavior of conning information out of a public official without telling him why you were calling him in the first place. Again, if you had some information you didn't want anyone to know where it came from why in the world brag about how you got it to me on the phone?   

This isn't the first time you've claimed you didn't even know that you would write an article on Crump's suicide when you spoke to that Merchantville township manager and unethically conned information out of him. That pathetic excuse sure doesn't work for me and it shouldn't for anyone else either. You obviously knew when you called that man what you were looking for and it obviously wasn't some discusson about building architecture in New Jersey! ;)

Frankly I had a discussion about Crump's suicide about five years before any of this with Geoff Shackelford. He mentioned he might write about it. I asked him if he did do that if he would mention it to Pine Valley first. He told me he didn't know. He also mentioned that of course he didn't have to do that but he understood it would be the decent thing to do. Later he told me he'd decided he never would write about that subject.

To me that was a considerate and ethical decision on his part, and for reasons you probably don't even understand much less appreciate.


 
 


TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2010, 11:41:53 PM »
"Do I want everyone to know I'm a sham? I don't believe I am a sham so the question is not really relevant."


Fascinating logic. Since you also don't seem to believe that conning information out of a public official without bothering to tell him why you are calling him in the first place is unethical, I suppose you also believe that even being questioned about it is also an irrelevant question. ;)

In your mind I guess it's better to just rationalize it away or better yet try to shunt your lack of ethics and your irresponsibility off on others, in this case Wayne Morrison and me.

Anyway, if you did call the most recent Pine Valley historian before writing your essay on Crump's suicide one probably wouldn't be too optimistic to expect you to at least mention to him what the essay was essentially going to be about. Instead it seems you led him to believe it might've been about Crump's education; a subject you just said he mentioned to you wouldn't be a very good subject.

Would it be too much to expect, at that point, you might've said: "Oh no, Mr. Finegan, his education is just background for my primary theme which his about the fact he committed suiciide."
 

« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 11:53:50 PM by TEPaul »

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2010, 12:32:45 AM »
Would it be too much to expect, at that point, you might've said: "Oh no, Mr. Finegan, his education is just background for my primary theme which his about the fact he committed suiciide."

Tom, in fairness, Crump's suicide was but a very small part of that essay.  I'd be hard pressed to view it as a primary theme.  For me, that subject is largely lost in the broader detail given to Crump's life and the Pine Valley story.  Just one man's opinion.  Best wishes,

Ed
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 09:17:28 AM by Ed Oden »

Mike Cirba

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2010, 10:28:04 AM »
Mike,

  Is the hole # given in the article?  Just curious. For some reason it reminds me of #12, or whatever the hole most north on the property is with the "snake" bunker on the right side. 

  I played Pines this past Saturday.  Not a lot of discussion here.  I have some pics but haven't gone through them yet; many very, very good Flynn holes, some average to below average Flynn holes (#1); 2 good Gordon holes (5,9), and 3 (6-7-8) atrocious holes. 

  Wandering around the lower level of the clubhouse, nearer to the pro shop than the locker room, I saw a few Gordon prints or reprints of holes, but no mention of Flynn, which is a shame.  The scorecard for the Pines lists Flynn/Toomey (they're literally only half right). It would have been interesting to see Flynn drawings of his nine holes displayed the same as the Ross drawings, and, because folks may know a little more about him now, or could tie in with his work with Phila. courses like Philadelphia CC, HV, RG, Manuf. CC, Philmont  ;) (NOT), Woodcrest, and Lancaster, and notable national courses such as Shinnecock Hills, it may actually be good marketing for the resort-more may be wanting to play Pines and see his work. 

  I did note, many of the bunkers were in poor shape, many had stones in them, and I knowingly violated the rules by removing stones the size of a peach pit around my ball.  (But, I didn't post a score-TEP, check your PMs, please). 


Doug,

Unfortunately, the article doesn't mention what hole that is, but I like your thinking as to the possibility.

As far as the original nine-holes Flynn built, the closest thing I found in the clubhouse documenting that nine is a drawing of the 27 holes from the 20s, of which I took this pic of the original Flynn nine.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2010, 11:46:18 PM »
TEP
You have a very selective memory.

TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2010, 09:24:17 AM »
"TEP
You have a very selective memory."


Tom MacWood:

Fortunately I don't need to rely on my memory when it comes to my discussions and communications with you on any medium. The same has been true with at least half a dozen others over the years on subjects pertaining to GCA, agronomy etc. But in all the other cases there was nothing adverserial or argumentative about them. I've kept all Internet text type communications, as well as regular mail communications and including telephone recordings of those whose opinions I have really valued over the years. Those include Coore, Crenshaw, Prichard, and a number of other architects; numerous superintendents, valued opinions from analysts and historians I admire such as Shackelford, Labannce, Andrews et al, etc.

I could see on and from this website for many years now that you look at a particular set of facts quite differently than everyone else does, and consequently it's very clear you distort those facts for some reason. I have no idea if it's purposeful or if it isn't. I only know you distort by ignoring, rationalizing or whatever, clear facts involving people such as that Merchantville township manager so I made a point long before that Crump article to do the same with you----eg record and file all communications including telephone calls.

So I don't need to rely on memory. It's always been obvious to me that you would use a retort and response like the one above; it's certainly not the first time.

The fact is you conned that Merchantville township manager out of information on Crump's death without first telling him why you were calling him or what you really wanted to know from him. My telephone call with him confirms that. But the best confirmation of all is my phone call with you where you actually bragged about getting that information out of him that way and your further explanation to me that that makes you a better researcher than us (me and Wayne, who were at that time asking you how you could prove Crump really did commit suicide).

I think that's unethical anyway and particularly if you write about it without first informing a source, whether you say you knew you would at the time or not. That you say you didn't know you would write about it when you spoke to him I view as just another of your excuses and rationalizations and I frankly don't believe you for a second.

The second thing I feel is inexcusable on your part is your total failure to inform Pine Valley first of the subject you were writing about---eg Crump and his suicide. And that includes Mr. Finegan who you say you spoke to in preparation for that article. You probably would have neglected to inform them of it at all before putting it on here had it not been for me and how I got you John Ott's email so you could sent it to him after the fact.

Frankly, I see a pattern here that probably explains why you virtually always refuse to establish a relationship with a club first before you make them a subject of your research or writing. You either don't understand ethics, common decency or else apparently you feel if you actually tried it may not work out very well for you.

I'm aware with and from other clubs that the latter is obviously quite true too. I am also aware that there are some on here who do not see some of these things as I do and some others of my friends on here and elsewhere do. Some think information should just come out no matter how it is derived, particularly on this new Internet medium. Call me old fashioned but I still believe in things like ethics, commonsense, etiquette etc because ultimately it all gets down to human nature in the end and many of us really do want to deal with these clubs and the people in and from them in the future. Apparently you don't have that inclination, that consideration or that understanding, and it shows on here with you loud and clear!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 09:41:22 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2010, 10:09:53 AM »
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16823.msg293860/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16520.msg287378/

TEP
You are a funny guy. This is about the forth or fifth version of the events you've told. Either your memory is fading or you've told so many lies its difficult for you to keep them all straight. I lean toward the latter. If anyone is interested (and I doubt anyone is....they've been listening to your attacks for too long) I've attached a couple of links to back before I finished the essay on Crump. You developed your con story some time after that.  

You said I conned the poor fellow...how exactly did I con him? He denied to you that he told me Crump committed suicide. Who do you believe? The second point which is lost on you, I never mentioned him or any information he may or may not have given me in the essay, so even your falsified point is moot. Falsification seems to be your specialty.

I still find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 10:25:28 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2010, 11:11:58 AM »
Tom MacWood:

Thank you for posting those old threads. One certainly wonders why you posted those two on the post above or what you think they say or prove. I was actually looking at you searching a few other posts earlier from a few years ago that had to do with how you unethically conned the township manager of Merchantville out of information on Crump's death without telling him why you were calling him. I wonder why you didn't use those since they are completely consistent with what I've said on this one.  ;)

Again, thanks for responding as you have. I look forward to having a complete discussion on this with yoiu for those who are interested. I think it is completely necessary, perhaps even required on here for contributors and viewers of this website to really understand your modus operandi and your agenda, particularly as it seems in recent weeks and months on other subjects and threads your opinions and contentions are receiving no support whatsoever. I view all of this as necessary peer review. I hope you do too.

TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2010, 11:18:40 AM »
"I still find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research."



Tom MacWood:

Why don't you start by reading an article that was in the 2009 Walker Cup program? The title of it is "Hugh I. Wilson and the Age of the amateur/sportsman architect." It may interest you as that seems to be a subject you've certainly had a number of opinions about on this website over the years.  ;)

I think you can find it on the USGA's website or on Google as the article was not only in the 2009 Merion Walker Cup program but it went out to all USGA subscribers----what would that be, something like 700,000?

Feel free to post it on this website if you want to or we can probably find someone to take apart the program and scan in the article and the photos and logos and such of the architects and clubs that are the subject of the article.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 11:20:54 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2010, 11:30:28 AM »
Tom MacWood:


By the way, I have always felt and have said so many times on here that the thread you are viewing at this very moment-----eg "CB Macdonald and Merion" that was begun by you in February 2003 and continued to run on here on and off until the middle of 2008 was the very thread that first began all these adverserial and argumentative Merion threads and other adverserial subjects between you and others on here.

If you look on something like the second page of that particular thread you will see you asked us a question about who precisely designed what on various holes of Merion East. We told you back then over seven years ago that that kind of specific information is just unknowable because specific information like that was never recorded by Merion and frankly is never really recorded on any golf course or project.

It's too bad you refused to listen to that and refused to acknowledge it and it's too bad still that you continue to. Obviously that sort of logical response and logical analysis does not suit your modus operandi and your agenda on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2010, 11:47:12 AM »
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,6839.175/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16450.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18231.msg323239/

TEP
Here are a few more links to other threads including the thread when the whole thing blew up on GCA. You need to read all these threads a little more closely, you're obviously confused because they do support your latest version of events.

I learned of Crump's suicide a good year before that thread in 2004, and told Paul and Ran at the time what I discovered. They can confirm  the timing and that I never planned on writing an essay. It was only after you & Wayne brow beat the poor fellow, and began attacking my credibility that I decided to write an essay on Crump. Thanks again. And as Ed pointed out a few posts ago (which you conveniently ignored) the suicide was but a minor part of the essay.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2010, 11:53:29 AM »
"I still find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research."



Tom MacWood:

Why don't you start by reading an article that was in the 2009 Walker Cup program? The title of it is "Hugh I. Wilson and the Age of the amateur/sportsman architect." It may interest you as that seems to be a subject you've certainly had a number of opinions about on this website over the years.  ;)

I think you can find it on the USGA's website or on Google as the article was not only in the 2009 Merion Walker Cup program but it went out to all USGA subscribers----what would that be, something like 700,000?

Feel free to post it on this website if you want to or we can probably find someone to take apart the program and scan in the article and the photos and logos and such of the architects and clubs that are the subject of the article.



TEP
I missed that one, and I'm a USGA member. Could you send it to me. I'd love to read it.

TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2010, 03:08:41 PM »
Tom MacWood:


Thanks for those additional links; they just continue to confirm what I have always said on here about the way you went about looking into Crump's death including conning the township manager of Merchantville NJ, as well as failing to discuss it with Pine Valley.

Even with proving that Crump committed suicide, a fact that apparently neither Pine Valley, Crump's friends or family ever wanted to get into, even though that rumor has been around Pine Valley for decades (I heard about it over thirty years ago), it looks like you didn't even get it right about where he died.

It's probably just about certain he died not in his home in Merchantville, as you claimed in your essay, but in his cabin at Pine Valley and there is some pretty solid proof of that. Apparently his body was moved to Merchantville and for whatever their reasons that is both why and how his family began the cover-up of the circumstances of his death. For whatever their reasons, the cover-up of the circumstances of his death by his family seems to have been comprehensive and fairly complete, as even Hugh Wilson over ten days later thought he died from poison to the brain from a tooth abscess.


« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 01:15:01 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2010, 10:56:16 AM »
"TEP
I missed that one, and I'm a USGA member. Could you send it to me. I'd love to read it."



Tom MacWood:

I guess it could be found somewhere on the USGA's website since they did send it out to all the members via their email component or whatever it is that took the place of their old magazine, but I've never tried to find it that way.

But I would be happy to personally send you a copy of the 2009 Walker Cup program which has all the photos and club logos in the article. Plus the program has a really comprehensive hole by hole description article in it by Wayne Morrison.

You may need to give me your mailing address though because the only one I have for you is "Tom MacWood, Ivory Tower, Ohio." Would that address reach you? If not, tell me what it is.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2010, 05:34:19 AM »
Will miracles never cease:  in the June issue of GD under the "vital statistics" part Seaview Bay lists the course as "... designed by Hugh Wilson in 1914 with help from Donald Ross, who laid out the bunkers."

I guess some people at GD actually read GCA.   ;) ;D

« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 10:37:36 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2010, 05:56:54 AM »
Joe
Wasn't Ron Whitten the first person to suggest the Wilson connection in an article a number of years ago? If you look up Bethpage I suspect you will also find the name Burbeck.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 06:33:01 AM by Tom MacWood »

JeffTodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #94 on: June 19, 2010, 04:59:19 PM »
Will miracles never cease:  in the June issue of GD under the "vital statistics" part Seaview Bay lists the course as "... designed by Hugh Wilson in 1914 with help from Donald Ross, who laid out the bunkers."

I guess some people at GD actually ready GCA.   ;) ;D

I'm watching some of the Shoprite Classic and The Golf Channel just stated that the Bay course was routed by Hugh Wilson, and Donald Ross "helped out" with the bunkering.

My jaw dropped!

Mike Cirba

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #95 on: June 19, 2010, 05:20:40 PM »
Hallelujah.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 11:04:22 AM by Mike_Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2010, 10:55:35 AM »
"Wasn't Ron Whitten the first person to suggest the Wilson connection in an article a number of years ago? If you look up Bethpage I suspect you will also find the name Burbeck."


Not unless Ron Whitten was writing articles about Seaview about 95 years ago.   

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2014, 04:03:14 AM »
Here is a currently functioning link to Ron Whitten's 2006 GD article on the architectural origin of the Seaview Bay course:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061030133756/http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/seaview.html

I'm going down to the course this morning to see the recent tweaks as MyPhillyGolf.com reported on recently:

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=14546
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2014, 12:04:05 PM »
I'm going down to the course this morning to see the recent tweaks as MyPhillyGolf.com reported on recently:

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=14546

"new GPS units in the golf carts"

sigh. not many great golf courses in the US with as easy a walk as Seaview Bay. i know the cart battle has been lost for years, but it still makes me sad. i hope management doesn't begin actively discouraging walking.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seaview: Wilson laid out the course, Ross did the trapping
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2014, 12:52:45 PM »
Joe,

Without rereading this thread.

Why would one architect lay out the course........... and then abandon it ?

And, why would another architect, who didn't route the course or design each hole, want to introduce the bunkering ?

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